Fake Marukas

[alx gilmore]

Ok apparently the photo error for uploading this pic here was only an error on my Samsung tablet, but works on my iPhone.

So Alex here is a pic of the stamps.

View attachment 776650

Tom
Really nice looking stone, and everyone else's too including Steve's stones. the stones may or may not be from the Nakayama mine but from what I see I would say that they are. Who ever is using those stamps has access to some excellent stock and is doing no harm in stamping them like he is. The stamps themselves have absolutely nothing to do however with Hatanaka of Hatanaka Toishi Co. or with Kato-san the previous owner of the Nakayama mine.

These look like brand new stamps, not replicas or forgeries but instead just simple Jun Shin Sho Hon Yama (Pure Special Chosen Original Mountain) main stamp within a rectangle plus the upper right stamp Jou Seu (select best), possibly laser cut and purely decorative.

A couple of observations. Kato and Hatanaka did not lap/smooth the sides or ends of their stones but left the typical circular saw marks intact. And I think that in the near future you will begin to see more and more Maruka stamps with the Ka within a circle as Kato-san stamped some of his stones. I think you will notice if you do some research that Kato did not stamp indiscriminately small koppa (bits and pieces) stones or poorly shaped stones, but instead only the larger full bodied stones. There are exceptions, and when Hatanaka-san took over Kato's stamps some exceptions were made but in general they did not stamp every stone.

There will be large amounts of yellow kiita type koppa stones coming on the market in about a month or two, I suspect that when they reach the west they will have a simple two character kanji 中山 Naka Yama stamp. These will not be directly from the Hatanaka family. Not that they are bad stones, I have one sample for myself, but they are coming from a different wholesaler.

peace,
Alex

 

[rideon66]

Tom
Really nice looking stone, and everyone else's too including Steve's stones. the stones may or may not be from the Nakayama mine but from what I see I would say that they are. Who ever is using those stamps has access to some excellent stock and is doing no harm in stamping them like he is. The stamps themselves have absolutely nothing to do however with Hatanaka of Hatanaka Toishi Co. or with Kato-san the previous owner of the Nakayama mine.

These look like brand new stamps, not replicas or forgeries but instead just simple Jun Shin Sho Hon Yama (Pure Special Chosen Original Mountain) main stamp within a rectangle plus the upper right stamp Jou Seu (select best), possibly laser cut and purely decorative.

A couple of observations. Kato and Hatanaka did not lap/smooth the sides or ends of their stones but left the typical circular saw marks intact. And I think that in the near future you will begin to see more and more Maruka stamps with the Ka within a circle as Kato-san stamped some of his stones. I think you will notice if you do some research that Kato did not stamp indiscriminately small koppa (bits and pieces) stones or poorly shaped stones, but instead only the larger full bodied stones. There are exceptions, and when Hatanaka-san took over Kato's stamps some exceptions were made but in general they did not stamp every stone.

There will be large amounts of yellow kiita type koppa stones coming on the market in about a month or two, I suspect that when they reach the west they will have a simple two character kanji 中山 Naka Yama stamp. These will not be directly from the Hatanaka family. Not that they are bad stones, I have one sample for myself, but they are coming from a different wholesaler.

peace,
Alex

Alex,

Thank you for the insight. I was hoping it was something like this. Now I just need the patients to wait some more. Says it has cleared customs in Moscow and is begin prepared for shipment/release from Russia.
I didn't even notice the smooth sides on some of the stones. He seems to have a mix some smooth and some saw marks. Mine seems to have the saw marks and chisel marks on the bottom too. Does this give any reference to being older stock that just got a new stamp, or is there no way to really tell? Here are pics from other angles.

 

[alx gilmore]

Tom
These photos of your stones are indicative of 20th Century stock, the circular saw marks became the norm during the 1920s but not all shops retooled at the same time, in other words one miner or wholesaler would be the first to have a post WW1 circular saw and then the other stone suppliers would follow suit up to the mid-1930s when the Japanese war effort in China got in full swing and all machinery was dedicated to that cause. Shortly after WW2 if they could afford it all of the stone merchants/miners/wholesalers would have been able to buy the power driven circular saws.

The hand shaping of the backs of the stones was done with a geologists hammer, handwork was still cheap enough into the 1960s in rural settings and in any case most of the mines were closed by then so most of the stone stock we see was dug, shaped and stored by then including the hand chiseled back work. I know of 2 Honyama mines that would have produced stone like you have into the 1960s, Nakayama is one of them.

It is very gratifying to see you and the others taking chances with these semi-hard stones for your razors. For years the hardest of the hard and mostly the gray stones were touted as the "only true" kamisori razor stones, and the closest most fellows got to using the beautiful colored semi-hard stones was as a tomonagura form. The same held true for the suita stones until Alfredo Gil began testing out the suita for razors.

peace,
Alex

 

[kcb5150]

A few gray were available. The smaller one along with some ozuku asagi stones were the hardest stuff he had. He said mine is ultra hard but idk what his frame of reference is.

 

[kcb5150]

I thought about this one as well but someone else snapped it up.

 

[Steve56]

Boy that one was a beauty!

Cheers, Steve

 

[rideon66]

Yeah I almost bought that double kan one too he had that one listed as a 5+. I looked at it for a day or two then someone put me out of my misery and finally bought it so I could stop thinking about it. I figured I would just go for one stone right now even though that double kan was cheap. The one I had in the checkout then backed out of was a even nicer double sided 5+ Ozuku karasu/suminagashi. I regret not getting that one. It sold like an hour later when I decided I was actually going to get it. Lucky for me these nice stones showed up a week or two later.

Alex,
Thank you for the history I enjoy hearing the background on these. Also these semi hard to hard stones give the perfect edge in my opinion. They are plenty hard enough for razors and with the right touch can produce incredible smooth edges.

 

[kcb5150]

Yeah, he said it was hard enough which made me think it was on the med hard hard border. I wanted hard but not crazy hard so I went with what I chose.

 

[Old Frog]

Tom
These photos of your stones are indicative of 20th Century stock, the circular saw marks became the norm during the 1920s but not all shops retooled at the same time, in other words one miner or wholesaler would be the first to have a post WW1 circular saw and then the other stone suppliers would follow suit up to the mid-1930s when the Japanese war effort in China got in full swing and all machinery was dedicated to that cause. Shortly after WW2 if they could afford it all of the stone merchants/miners/wholesalers would have been able to buy the power driven circular saws.

The hand shaping of the backs of the stones was done with a geologists hammer, handwork was still cheap enough into the 1960s in rural settings and in any case most of the mines were closed by then so most of the stone stock we see was dug, shaped and stored by then including the hand chiseled back work. I know of 2 Honyama mines that would have produced stone like you have into the 1960s, Nakayama is one of them.

It is very gratifying to see you and the others taking chances with these semi-hard stones for your razors. For years the hardest of the hard and mostly the gray stones were touted as the "only true" kamisori razor stones, and the closest most fellows got to using the beautiful colored semi-hard stones was as a tomonagura form. The same held true for the suita stones until Alfredo Gil began testing out the suita for razors.

peace,
Alex

My thoughts exactly except more concisely stated than I would have done! ( ) Seriously, Alex, thank you for this, well, seminar on the subject. Kind of hard to read, though, being that I am so far down this rabbit hole and it's kinda DARK! Well received and appreciated commentary!

Chris

 

[kcb5150]

I thought about that double sided stone hard. It was a nice form factor.

 

[alx gilmore]

At one of the Kyoto flea markets today, early this morning I found this group. Is this a Fake Maruka Stamp?

 

[rideon66]

Is it stamped on the side of stone or just a sticker?

 

[kcb5150]

Lucky to have that in your flea markets, I get india oilstones and a dealer grunting at me..

 

[rideon66]

I would be broke with a flea market like that.

 

[rideon66]

Dang stupid tracking said it was still in Russia till they tried to deliver to my door today. Now I have to wait till Monday and go pick up at the post office. Early lunch on Monday for me I guess.

 

[Rotflmao]

Dang stupid tracking said it was still in Russia till they tried to deliver to my door today. Now I have to wait till Monday and go pick up at the post office. Early lunch on Monday for me I guess.

Sounds like a good Monday.

 

[rideon66]

Sounds like a good Monday.

yeah except I have to work Monday and I could have had all night and tomorrow to test her out. Monday will still be sweet though.

 

[alx gilmore]

Tom.. The seller here owns the business Maruichi when he inherited his fathers stone business and sells at shows, this is just one example of his use of a Maruka stamp. Maruichi uses this stamp not to duplicate anyone else's Maruka stamp but instead to suggest that the stone is from the Nakayama mine. After all, stamps are for guidance, like the headlines on a newspaper, the real story is in the small print. Same with the stone whether ink stamped Ohira, Oozuku, Ozaki or Nakayama, they may be or may not be from those mines but actually testing and trying out the stones with your steel is the real story.

Things are going to be a bit ambiguous for a while with the Maruka stamp, the Hatanaka family gave it up for now.

 

[alx gilmore]

Photos

 

[Mr.Tee]

This really turned into an interesting discussion. In all the pics above I wish the stone I was talking about would of showen up. It was a narrower nakayama kiita aisa stone with a notched out area on the side of one end, full of kawa. To my best judgement and knowledge, the kawa looked like typical nakayama. That same notched end had a purplish maruka stamp on it. Upon zooming in one of the pictures, I noticed the stamp was high up on the honing surface of the stone, partially off. Indicating an old, well used stone as indicated in the description of "old barbers hone". Ok great....With further inspection it appeared as part of the stamp was on the stones chamfer? That thru the red flag for me. One could easily place a stamp high on a stone even partially off to indicate age and use. But if that is true, why would ink be on the chamfer? Maybe my assumptions were wrong, and I am not bashing any seller, just precautious. It would be interesting if anyone on the board here bought that particular piece. It looked to be a really nice stone. If I had won that auction I planned on cutting the notched end off for a nice hard kiita tomo. In use tho, stamps dont really mean crap, but if real, they do add some character and nostalgia to the stone. But with that said I would pay double for an unstamped stone that I know with certainty its hardness, speed, how fine, etc. than an unverified (to me at least) knockout stamped stone. I mean really, how can one give a stone a well assessed hardness rating or whatever with brand new stamps slathered on the top?