Exchanging Films for Stones. . . . maybe

[Slash McCoy]

Thank you for your very informative post! A nitpick - I don't think Norton uses ANSI grits to rate all of their stones, as ANSI 1500 grit has an average particle diameter of 3 microns whereas the Norton 8000 grit stone has an average particle size of 3 microns and the Norton 4000 grit stone has an average particle size of 5 microns.

I'm not sure the Japanese synthetic waterstone makers use JIS grits for their high grit stones either, as the particle sizes don't match each other (Suehiro Gokumyo calls a 0.5u stone 20k grit, Shapton calls a 0.49u stone 30k grit) or the JIS chart extrapolated to those numbers, or sometimes even the JIS chart at lower grits (Shapton 8k has an advertised 1.84 micron particle size and Shapton 12k is 1.2 micron, JIS 8000 is 1.2 micron).

Also, I would like to complain that every grit comparison chart that I've seen lists ANSI grit sizes a little differently.

Ah, thanks for that. Apparently I was wrongfully belaboring under a pre-misconceptualization.

 

[Gamma]

I don't think Norton uses ANSI grits to rate all of their stones, as ANSI 1500 grit has an average particle diameter of 3 microns whereas the Norton 8000 grit stone has an average particle size of 3 microns and the Norton 4000 grit stone has an average particle size of 5 microns.

I'm not sure the Japanese synthetic waterstone makers use JIS grits for their high grit stones either, as the particle sizes don't match each other (Suehiro Gokumyo calls a 0.5u stone 20k grit, Shapton calls a 0.49u stone 30k grit) or the JIS chart extrapolated to those numbers, or sometimes even the JIS chart at lower grits (Shapton 8k has an advertised 1.84 micron particle size and Shapton 12k is 1.2 micron, JIS 8000 is 1.2 micron).

Also, I would like to complain that every grit comparison chart that I've seen lists ANSI grit sizes a little differently.

Grit assignments for stones, and particles sizes of abrasives are two different concepts that are connected but not synonymous.

Any given stone is not comprised of only particles of the size indicated. There are a percentage of particles larger and smaller and those percentages along with the concentration of the abrasive in the stone matter to a great degree. Average particle size means very little, the manufacturer can juggle those numbers easily. If you 50% on the money, and 10% over with 40% under then you can have a completely different stone than one with 50% on, 30% over and 20% under. Yeah - the systems are supposed to regulate the percentages but there is still wiggle room there and who on earth is going to start figureing out what is really in the box?

Binder types matter also - so there's that.

It's very possible, factualy so, to have a stone marked 8k that is finer than another one marked 10k - and that holds true within a single manufacturer as well as comparing stones across many different brands.

Grit charts.. a mixed lot of fun. JIS changed back about 10 yr ago so if you have an old one it won't be correct. I'd assume every other scale might be affected in a similar way. Then - there's the methods of measuring and the actual percentages of particles. Reading PSD charts can be very enlightening - but most stone manufacturers won't provide one.
Lastly - particle type - abrasives come in many shapes and sizes - and that matters too.

Trying to buy stones, choose stones, etc - based on the 'grit' stamped on it or the sides of the box it comes in is defeating, always has been always will be. Brands do not adhere to any exacting standard because, well - there the so-called standards only apply to the abrasive materials in their raw as-delivered form-factor, usually powders.

 

[147_Grain]

Grit assignments for stones, and particles sizes of abrasives are two different concepts that are connected but not synonymous. [...]

Thanks for your post, Gamma. I was broadly aware of the way that the particle size distribution is often specified with a D5%, D50% and D95% or something similar and the different measurement techniques specified in various standards (sieve method, sedimentation method, &c) but I had always thought that stones made up of the same abrasive and binder (for instance, those from the same line from the same manufacturer) would more or less cut in a way corresponding to particle size - interesting to know that isn't the case.

A further observation - some common grit comparison charts (which, as you noted, never seem to use anything other than D50% to "line up" the various rating systems) assign arbitrary numbers to natural stones that make no sense at all. Eg. the one that comes up on SRP if you google for it calls the belgian blue whetstone a roughly 4000 grit stone. That makes no sense based on the actual diameter of garnets in BBW, and even if there were some platonic form of a "4000 grit" synthetic whetstone to compare it to I don't think it holds up at all.

 

[Gamma]

There are sooo many mind benders in this storyline....
Facinating and aggravating all at the same time.

 

[Dilbone]

Well, after a few nice shaves off of the cnat I decided to hit the crox cotton strop and see of the irritation I was getting before was from the crox itself or the fact that the edge just wasn't where it needed to be yet.

I did 25 laps which is what I had done last time and got one of the closest smoothest 2 pass shaves I've had with this blade. It was awesome.
Definitely just wasn't finished before and hadn't spent enough rime on the cnat before hitting the pasted strop. This time it was a winner.

Now if my king 1k and 6k stones would get here I could try out the whole progression!!!

 

[David]

Glad to hear it's going well for you!

 

[Gamma]

Glad to hear the crox didn't cause a shaving disaster. Lol....

 

[Dilbone]

Glad to hear it's going well for you!

yeah, although time consuming it was nice to get a good edge off a rock

Glad to hear the crox didn't cause a shaving disaster. Lol....

Haha, That was one of the most unusual posts I've seen...
I still have been so surprised and pleased with the hanging strops vs the paddle and balsa strops I was using. The crox on balsa I used to use was essentially worthless, this cotton webbing is awesome!

In other news, a package showed up Friday.


I opened it up and got my 400 W/D laid out on my marble tile and lapped them. It took a while and I went through 3 halfsheets getting them done but they finally flattened out.
I grabbed my Pearl King razor(that I had previously gotten shave ready a long while ago but had since completely lost its edge) and hit the 1k, I was getting a bit frustrated as it seemed like the bevel just would not set. Finally I was able to pop some hairs on the floating leg hair test so I moved on to the 6k. After a looooooooooong time on the 6k I was beginning to see a polish start and the deep 1k lines fading. The 6k seemed like it was loading fast and the edge didn't seem to be getting any better at all. I was beginning to feel like I had made a mistake in ordering stones instead of just going with film. I gave up after a few hours of honing with the results at a seeming stand still.
Here's the stones after my first session:


I am about to get the stones soaking and lap them once again since I spent so much time on them the other night and see if I can't make something happen. I know there's a learning curve anytime you change the way you do something, but I didn't expect to get this frustrated. If guys charge $20 or so to hone a blade, it can't very well take them HOURS to hone(and still not get a shave ready edge) or they simply can't make money or do very much business...

Here I go again...round 2

 

[Slash McCoy]

The pink one isn't a Naniwa 3k?

 

[Gamma]

Haha, That was one of the most unusual posts I've seen...
I still have been so surprised and pleased with the hanging strops vs the paddle and balsa strops I was using. The crox on balsa I used to use was essentially worthless, this cotton webbing is awesome!

For me a textured cotton webbing, esp if it's a good heavyweight type, can be a killer substrate for abrasive pastes. What I like about the hanging strops here is that you can gauge the slack, which definitely has a major amount of impact on the edge. There's fiddling to do there but it's fun experimentation. For me anyway..

Now - to use a very coarse paste to handle the pre-finish work - like 3µm or heavier - things get tedious because a good amount of pressure is needed and I find it best to use a hard substrate under the webbing. The webbing still compresses but not so much that you wind up with a kumquat bevel.

I have another experiment in the works right now, and I've been experimenting with softer leather and silicon rubber as a primary substrate under another layer. Similar I guess to what the guys using films do with putting paper under one grade of film to finish.
As a result, I find myself thinking those abrasive films would do well here - I have to get a set to test with.

 

[David]

Hmm......

 

[Dilbone]

The pink one isn't a Naniwa 3k?

no, King 1k there

For me a textured cotton webbing, esp if it's a good heavyweight type, can be a killer substrate for abrasive pastes. What I like about the hanging strops here is that you can gauge the slack, which definitely has a major amount of impact on the edge. There's fiddling to do there but it's fun experimentation. For me anyway..

Now - to use a very coarse paste to handle the pre-finish work - like 3µm or heavier - things get tedious because a good amount of pressure is needed and I find it best to use a hard substrate under the webbing. The webbing still compresses but not so much that you wind up with a kumquat bevel.

I have another experiment in the works right now, and I've been experimenting with softer leather and silicon rubber as a primary substrate under another layer. Similar I guess to what the guys using films do with putting paper under one grade of film to finish.
As a result, I find myself thinking those abrasive films would do well here - I have to get a set to test with.

That does sound interesting

 

[Dilbone]

I just lapped everything flat again...I think that may have been part of the issue with the first go around...the Kings took a while to get flat...because I probably didn't do a good enough job last time.
Norton was pretty quick. I am 3 sheets of w/d paper in and don't even have 1 razor honed yet... I think a DMT lapping plate will be in the works soon...if it takes me $3-$4 of w/d paper to get a razor ready that's going to add up really quick...

Anyway. I spent some time on the King 6k again and got the blade at least able to catch an odd hair here or there on my leg. It seems to load quickly and stop cutting...the 6k that is. I'm not sure how to keep that from happening, but once it seemed like it was done cutting I got the Norton 8k out and it was cutting really well at first but also seemed to load up. I kept rubbing my fingers with fresh water on the surface to try and clean it up and expose fresh stone and it seemed to do ok. It also eventually got to a point where it seemed to stop cutting so much. I dried off the blade an did some laps on leather to clean up the edge and I was definitely tree topping a fair number of hairs on the old FOLH test...I feel much better about the stone situation now.

I could probably get a decent shave after crox and then plain cotton, but I'll spend 20min or more on the cnat and then proceed to crox, cotton, and leather for a test shave. It seems like I'm at least making progress.

When you seemingly get to the end of a stone's ability to cut is it because it has removed the bulk of the courser striations from the previous grit?

Is there a way to keep these from loading or is it just part of the game?

 

[Gamma]

Sometimes they glaze up, other times they load - depending on the stone, it's just part of the game. Getting the sequence of clearning the stone, keeping it wet but not too wet or whatever, and everything else down - is par for the course.
Most stones will continue to cut unless they're glazed or loaded though.
But once the previous work is nearly eliminated from view, it may seem to cut less - in a way it is, but not because it can't cut, it's just that there's fewer/less protrusions to cut.As you refine, the peaks/valleys become more of a flat plane. Or is it plain? Whatever it's called, it's smoother. The closer to max you get on any one stone, the less swarf there will be on the next stone.

An example - one benchmark on the N 8k is that if you start off with making heavy swarf lines, you're prob not done on the previous stone yet.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Yes, as a bevel approaches relative flatness the amount of steel to be removed for another fraction of a micron into the old scratches increases exponentially. Essentially, more surface is presented directly by contact to the hone, slowing progress. This effect often goes unnoticed but it is there.

If your stone is actually loading with swarf, you might not be carrying enough water on the stone. Or in the case of a King, not soaking long enough. You could try to increase the viscosity by using motor oil or a blend of motor oil and Smith honing oil instead of water, or a 50/50 solution of dish soap but I find running water on a King 6k works well. Your 1k can be used for a quick mini-lap of the 6k, for the purposes of refreshing the surface. You will still need to properly lap it once in a while for flatness though. The 1k is handy and I reached for my Naniwa 1k once because it was right there on my workbench and swiped it across my own K6k a few times and was surprised at how well that worked. Dont know if it might have contaminated the surface with 1k grit, but we dont worry about 400 grit contamination from W/D, so I guess it is okay. Try at your own risk. Cant do any harm that re-lapping won't fix.

BTW a lot of guys dont like to even think about oil on these stones. You never really get it all out if you decide to go back to water. Dish soap is much more benign in that respect. The problem is the clay matrix which is very porous and absorbent. Once you use oil, you are kinda stuck with oil, for these King stones. A Naniwa sneers at oil, in my experience; a good scrubbing with soapy water and it is back to normal. And Arks thrive on it. But a King soaks it up like ebola virus and is assimilated kinda forever. So YMMV and all that.

If your sadpaper is loading up prematurely and not working anymore for stone lapping, try lightly scrubbing it with a toothbrush under running water. You get a lot more use out of it. It actually takes a while for it to wear out to the point of nonusability.

 

[Dilbone]

Yes, as a bevel approaches relative flatness the amount of steel to be removed for another fraction of a micron into the old scratches increases exponentially. Essentially, more surface is presented directly by contact to the hone, slowing progress. This effect often goes unnoticed but it is there.

If your stone is actually loading with swarf, you might not be carrying enough water on the stone. Or in the case of a King, not soaking long enough. You could try to increase the viscosity by using motor oil or a blend of motor oil and Smith honing oil instead of water, or a 50/50 solution of dish soap but I find running water on a King 6k works well. Your 1k can be used for a quick mini-lap of the 6k, for the purposes of refreshing the surface. You will still need to properly lap it once in a while for flatness though. The 1k is handy and I reached for my Naniwa 1k once because it was right there on my workbench and swiped it across my own K6k a few times and was surprised at how well that worked. Dont know if it might have contaminated the surface with 1k grit, but we dont worry about 400 grit contamination from W/D, so I guess it is okay. Try at your own risk. Cant do any harm that re-lapping won't fix.

BTW a lot of guys dont like to even think about oil on these stones. You never really get it all out if you decide to go back to water. Dish soap is much more benign in that respect. The problem is the clay matrix which is very porous and absorbent. Once you use oil, you are kinda stuck with oil, for these King stones. A Naniwa sneers at oil, in my experience; a good scrubbing with soapy water and it is back to normal. And Arks thrive on it. But a King soaks it up like ebola virus and is assimilated kinda forever. So YMMV and all that.

If your sadpaper is loading up prematurely and not working anymore for stone lapping, try lightly scrubbing it with a toothbrush under running water. You get a lot more use out of it. It actually takes a while for it to wear out to the point of nonusability.

Thanks gamma and slash for chiming in on those questions.

The w/d paper isn't loading it's actually getting destroyed by the 1k. The abrasive is being removed to the point that the backing is showing through the abrasive side.

I don't know if continuing with paper that's about to wear out is fine as long as I have a slurry helping lap the stone?

 

[bluesman 7]

I don't know if continuing with paper that's about to wear out is fine as long as I have a slurry helping lap the stone?

I do this all of the time. Just use a quality straight edge to verify flatness.

 

[Dilbone]

I do this all of the time. Just use a quality straight edge to verify flatness.

Good to know thanks bluesman

 

[Seraphim]

yeah, although time consuming it was nice to get a good edge off a rock



Haha, That was one of the most unusual posts I've seen...
I still have been so surprised and pleased with the hanging strops vs the paddle and balsa strops I was using. The crox on balsa I used to use was essentially worthless, this cotton webbing is awesome!

In other news, a package showed up Friday.


I opened it up and got my 400 W/D laid out on my marble tile and lapped them. It took a while and I went through 3 halfsheets getting them done but they finally flattened out.
I grabbed my Pearl King razor(that I had previously gotten shave ready a long while ago but had since completely lost its edge) and hit the 1k, I was getting a bit frustrated as it seemed like the bevel just would not set. Finally I was able to pop some hairs on the floating leg hair test so I moved on to the 6k. After a looooooooooong time on the 6k I was beginning to see a polish start and the deep 1k lines fading. The 6k seemed like it was loading fast and the edge didn't seem to be getting any better at all. I was beginning to feel like I had made a mistake in ordering stones instead of just going with film. I gave up after a few hours of honing with the results at a seeming stand still.
Here's the stones after my first session:


I am about to get the stones soaking and lap them once again since I spent so much time on them the other night and see if I can't make something happen. I know there's a learning curve anytime you change the way you do something, but I didn't expect to get this frustrated. If guys charge $20 or so to hone a blade, it can't very well take them HOURS to hone(and still not get a shave ready edge) or they simply can't make money or do very much business...

Here I go again...round 2

I was suspicious about if they were truly lapped flat, since the stamps were still quite clearly visible on them....

 

[Dilbone]

I was suspicious about if they were truly lapped flat, since the stamps were still quite clearly visible on them....

yeah, I was in a bit of a hurry the first time round and convinced myself they were good enough when the first grid was removed...rookie mistake.