Exchanging Films for Stones. . . . maybe

[David]

How's everything going Dilbone? Making any progress?

 

[Dilbone]

How's everything going Dilbone? Making any progress?

It's going well David,

I went back to 5u with the gold dollar I had mentioned along with my pearl king and another gold dollar I had fitted with maple scales.

The bone scale gold dollar turned out well on my last shave. Better than the first time off the stones but still just a bit lacking. I may need just a bit more time on the finisher.

The pearl king seems good and felt good with the norton and finisher but haven't shaved with it again yet.

The other Gold Dollar has some bevel issues I'm gonna have to resolve first. I had shaved with it before and figured the bevel was still fine but it was not for sure.

I'll shave with the pearl king here soon and see how it feels but it seemed to clean up well. It's been since April thst I used it last and the edge was lacking then so I think I've got it back.

I still need to get out to the barn and get another D ring made to add the cotton and crox to the new strop.

I can tell it's going to take me a bit of time to figure out the stones and what all the sounds and feels mean, but I feel like I'm getting way more feedback from the stones than I did from film. Along with the fact that the film grit decreased as it was used and the variability is part of what my issue has been. I will probably be ordering a norton 1k/4k combo this week unless someone convinces me otherwise.

 

[Dilbone]

I decided to finally put to use the cotton webbing and crox you sent David. Went out to the barn and grabbed another piece of brazing rod and started to bend some triangles this time instead of D-rings since my first bend was a little sharp...


Soldered the open side and cleaned them up with 320 grit


Got out the sewing machine and stitched the ends folded over the rings...done


I stropped the gold dollar I've been trying to get the edge back on using the plain cotton and I was amazed at how much keener the edge felt on the FFT.

I shaved my WTG pass and then half of the XTG pass(but ATG under jaw and neck). It was definitely keener than the last shave after the plain cotton. I then grabbed the crox side and hit it with 25 or so laps...it was bumped up another level for sure. I had a bit of irritation but I'm not sure if that was a kinda rough go yesterday, lather, too much pressure, or this edge...the next few days will determine that

 

[David]

That looks great!
25 laps on the chrox might be a little too much. Try 8-10 laps next time and see how that goes.

 

[Seraphim]

How did I miss this thread earlier?


Dilbone: Switching from film????

The only thing saving you from a charge of apostasy and being burned upon the stake is that you use a Gold Dollar razor.


Myself, I use a single piece of film for upwards of 20 edges. Yes, it gets less aggressive with each use, but if it were a slurry, folks would be cooing over how the slurry had "broken down" and refined the edge even further...or some such (just stirring the pot Guys, no harm intended)

The other factor that is different than your application is that I do use other hones as bevel setters, I don't like low grit film for that. I set the bevel on a Harbor Freight diamond plate (600 grit or so), slide it around on a KAI hone I picked up in Japan for $15 (roughly a 1200 or so it says), then hit up the 3um and 1um film to finish. Sometimes I dial it in with a pasted strop depending on my mood.

I have found that my DMT plates have worn out quite a bit over time as well. They are quite a bit slower/mellower/weaker than they used to be.

Anyhow, I do like the synthetic hones as as change of pace and feel when honing. But, as Slash mentioned, they wear out too due to material loss in lapping, but maintain uniform cutting power over their lifetime.

 

[Dilbone]

How did I miss this thread earlier?


Dilbone: Switching from film????

The only thing saving you from a charge of apostasy and being burned upon the stake is that you use a Gold Dollar razor.


Myself, I use a single piece of film for upwards of 20 edges. Yes, it gets less aggressive with each use, but if it were a slurry, folks would be cooing over how the slurry had "broken down" and refined the edge even further...or some such (just stirring the pot Guys, no harm intended)

The other factor that is different than your application is that I do use other hones as bevel setters, I don't like low grit film for that. I set the bevel on a Harbor Freight diamond plate (600 grit or so), slide it around on a KAI hone I picked up in Japan for $15 (roughly a 1200 or so it says), then hit up the 3um and 1um film to finish. Sometimes I dial it in with a pasted strop depending on my mood.

I have found that my DMT plates have worn out quite a bit over time as well. They are quite a bit slower/mellower/weaker than they used to be.

Anyhow, I do like the synthetic hones as as change of pace and feel when honing. But, as Slash mentioned, they wear out too due to material loss in lapping, but maintain uniform cutting power over their lifetime.

Hahaha, no wonder now when I hone, I seem to always be looking over my shoulder...

I think part of my issue is bevel setters also...I feel like I go through 12u film like someone with IBS goes through toilet paper, even my 15u seems to not last very long. I think probably because of that I end up at 5u and 3u too soon without really refining the bevel so that I have some strong FFT action before moving on to the polishing...then wearing out my 5, 3, 1u film polishing a turd.

I will say thought that I REALLY like this chinese finisher. I think in part because it is only 2" wide which allows me better contact on that warped Gold Dollar all across the edge. I keep holding off on the 1k/4k purchase...and I'm not sure why. I had looked at getting a harbor freight diamond plate a while back but had heard nothing they had was flat enough to be very useful.

I really can't see myself ever honing enough to wear out those stones. I don't know anyone locally that even shaves with a straight that could even hit me up for honing...although there is one guy I know that is contemplating it and I told him I'd get one of his Good Will finds shaving for him if he wanted.

For some reason the purchase is still being held off... I have the 1k/4k norton, a DMT 325, and about 25 sheets of film in my amazon shopping cart from a few weeks ago still...just can't make a decision yet!!!

I guess I'm waiting for someone or something to convince me enough to pull the trigger on something!!!

 

[Seraphim]

Right, the Harbor Freight diamond hones are as crooked as a Missouri politician, but You can simply superglue them down onto something that is flat (like atile, or whatever you'd use to lap hones, etc), and bingo_ they are now flat. And you can get a set of three for $10

 

[Dilbone]

Right, the Harbor Freight diamond hones are as crooked as a Missouri politician, but You can simply superglue them down onto something that is flat (like atile, or whatever you'd use to lap hones, etc), and bingo_ they are now flat. And you can get a set of three for $10

Good to know....I wasn't sure how those would work but that sounds like a plan, I may have to head up there tomorrow and pick up a set.

This has me that much closer to pulling the trigger on the norton 1k/4k.
I'll probably just pick up a pack of w/d 400 or 600 for lapping and call it done for now.

 

[Dilbone]

Btw, shaved today with 20 laps plain cotton, 60 on leather. Seemed even sharper than before but maybe a bit smoother. Irritation was definitely back to normal, tried to make sure pressure was light.
I'm digging these hanging strops, it feels like they are actually doing something to the edge compared to my old paddles.

 

[bluesman 7]

Right, the Harbor Freight diamond hones are as crooked as a Missouri politician, but You can simply superglue them down onto something that is flat (like atile, or whatever you'd use to lap hones, etc), and bingo_ they are now flat. And you can get a set of three for $10

I stuck mine down with epoxy and clamps, worked great. Until one day all three failed. I think the weather change made the bond fail from different expansion rates. The backing appears to be a polyurethane to me, which is hard to bond to. I'm going to try a silicone caulk this time.

 

[bluesman 7]

, it feels like they are actually doing something to the edge compared to my old paddles.

I've never had good luck with paddle strops and razors.

 

[Seraphim]

I stuck mine down with epoxy and clamps, worked great. Until one day all three failed. I think the weather change made the bond fail from different expansion rates. The backing appears to be a polyurethane to me, which is hard to bond to. I'm going to try a silicone caulk this time.

I used Superglue. Seems to
hsve bonded well so far.

 

[Dilbone]

well,

I have gone back to the 12k a couple different times for another 50-100 laps on that bone scale GD I've been working on and each time it seems the edge improves. That blade is one that has probably been the most difficult blade for me to figure out what has to happen to get a good edge on it...one that probably should have gone back in the box after a quick honing attempt showed it wasn't flat at all. Certainly not a blade that deserved the set of bone scales I made for it....but it is what it is and it has taught me an awful lot about honing...has probably made me much better at it. Kinda like that 1986 Mercury Cougar XR-7 I had 20 years ago that taught me how to fix almost everything that could ever fail on a car...lol

anyway...I digress...

I've been following the cnat with 20-40 laps on crox cotton webbing, 20 on plain cotton, and 60-80 on leather. After reading some more about this cnat, I think I just need to grab a cup of coffee and get going on it for a set time period as I think I've seen Seraphim suggest in other threads...5, 10 or 15 minutes and forget about counting laps. In comparing the edge so far on the GD to the edge I put on the Clauss with film(finishing on 1u) it is still not quite as sharp. However, getting a good edge all across this GD on film has always been a challenge since it is so warped. The cnat seems so much easier to work with being only 2"wide it just takes FOREVER to get the job done it seems. I honestly could see me keeping some 3u and 1u film around but also keeping at the stones to see if and how I can get comparable edges.

What I did finally do is place an order on amazon for some more stones. After going to a nearby harbor freight to get their cheap 3 piece diamond hone set for roughing out a bevel and finding they didn't have the 3 piece set but just the 4 sided block I hopped over to the woodcraft store. I saw more stones and DMT's than I expected there. I looked at some of the options and prices on their products and decided to do some searching for reviews on King stones.

I ended up finally ordering a 3 piece diamond hone set like what harbor freight carries for less than $10 for chip removal and getting bevels of some of the ebay butter knives I have at least close.
I also picked up a King 1k and King 6k to round out the progression. I'm not sure if I'm gonna like 1k to 6k jump and I'm not sure why King wouldn't have something intermediate in there, but It was a cheap way to get outfitted with stones. I've read much more about the King 1k being a decent bevel setter than I have seen about the King 6k. I did see a few guys say they go from king 1k to 6k to finisher and are happy with that progression...just seems like big jumps.

We'll see I guess when those come in. I have yet to pull the trigger on a DMT 325 as a lapping hone, I figure I'd better find out if I want to stick with stones before I spend another $50 on something used to keep them flat. I'll just use some W/D paper on my marble tile for now.

So It looks like I'll be using a King 1k, King 6k, Norton 8k, Cnat, crox on cotton progression once those come in and see what I can come up with.

 

[Gamma]

1k - 6k is a common jump for finishing cutlery.
I've been jumping from 1.5k to 5k for a while now, and it's working perfectly for me.

But - the concept of 'k' doesn't always tell the story; for example, I'm not certain you'll see legitimate improvement from the N 8k after honing on the K 6k.
The 'k' numbers don't mean much really.
Goitta roll with what you have to see what you get. Then try to refine it.
Some people don't like Chromox, I'm one of them. Factually though, lots of people have had success using it and continue to use it.
Like anything else, technique plays a big part in it. I used it when I started out - once I figured it out - it worked fine for me then.
Crox is what pushed me to getting a 12k SS, but I'm glad I had the benchmark from Crox in my toolbox.

 

[Dilbone]

1k - 6k is a common jump for finishing cutlery.
I've been jumping from 1.5k to 5k for a while now, and it's working perfectly for me.

But - the concept of 'k' doesn't always tell the story; for example, I'm not certain you'll see legitimate improvement from the N 8k after honing on the K 6k.
The 'k' numbers don't mean much really.
Goitta roll with what you have to see what you get. Then try to refine it.
Some people don't like Chromox, I'm one of them. Factually though, lots of people have had success using it and continue to use it.
Like anything else, technique plays a big part in it. I used it when I started out - once I figured it out - it worked fine for me then.
Crox is what pushed me to getting a 12k SS, but I'm glad I had the benchmark from Crox in my toolbox.

Yeah, I figure once you get above 1k or 2k that the difference for each 1k change is so small that there may be no difference at all between 4k-6k, 6k-8k and so on...on top of the fact that these grit values are rather nebulous and probably "shots in the dark" with no real single standard scale to go by.

I am curious though to see, like you said, what the differences are between different finishing...1u film/cnat/crox in terms of my own face and what I like or prefer.
So far I like the 1u film edge over the cnat, but like I said I don't know if I've really maxed out the cnat to it's best yet. I suppose I'll have a base line of comparison here soon and be able to make some decisions for where to go after this hopefully.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Yeah. 1k to 6k King is quite do-able. Sure, an intermediary rock would maybe speed things up. Or maybe not. The question always arises of when to move to the next stage. Well, the more times you do this in the progression, the more times you are in doubt. Sometimes the more dramatic step is easier, even though you end up using a lot of laps after a big jump. You can help by doing your part on the 1k. Finish the 1k work with very light pressure, clean stone, clear water, no slurry. Keep rinsing. Honing under running water helps. Yeah, you can start out with slurry and a bit of pressure, but you want to end up with a nice bevel, as flat and polished as the 1k can make it, so lighten and tighten before the 1k/6k bump. You can even use lather or dish soap when nearly done on the 1k. It helps, by buffering between razor and stone, preventing the stone from scratching as deeply. You need a lot of very light laps to get the full effect from this technique. Anyway, dont be shy about putting in some serious rubbing time on the 6k, or even making a light slurry. (this stone actually self slurrys pretty well.) When it is done, you should have some feedback. A little stickiness to the stone. Solid undercutting of the water that leaves the stone dry looking behind the razor. And the same tricks used to max out the 1k, will work on the 6k. You may be surprised to find that a maxed out 6k edge will shave at least sorta okay-ish, and maybe even treetop the odd forearm hair. From such an edge, it is a fairly easy leap to a 12k.

One problem with grit ratings is that there are several different rating scales. There is ANSI grit, used by Norton and other US and Canadian manufacturers. There is JIS grit used by Naniwa and other Asian companies. But within a single scale, doubling the grit is easy sneezy. Tripling the grit in one jump can be done with no severe hardship. The 1/6 jump is significant but after that, you are home free. But it is nice to keep the final jump to the final finisher kinda small, so there is no temptation to use pressure.

 

[alpster]

The reason I bought a complete set of Shapton pros is because I am aware that the grit (k) numbers are all over the place from different manufactures. At least the matched set are correct relative to each other. Each stone in my progression is roughly 1/2 as coarse as the one before it. I finish on a G20 Guacomole. (about the same grit as a Shapton 30K 0.5 microns) which is twice my Shapton 15K. I think once you get down to around .5 microns, its simply a matter of taste. Crox, diamond spray/paste, balsa, treated linen/canvas have all been praised by those who like them. I have learned that every stone in the progression wants to start with the best you can get from the one before it. You can jump from 8 - 16k as long as you are completely done with the 8. YMMV

 

[Dilbone]

Thanks Slash and alpster for your additional input and advice. It's all good food for thought as I continue to experience the learning curve.

I ended up soaking the Cnat for a while today and went to town on it again for another 15-20 minutes on and off. At least a couple hundred laps for sure. The floating over the leg hair(FOLH haha) test was tree topping hairs all over the place. My forearm hair lays down a bit too much so leg hair give a few more trees to top...

I decided to not use crox and just went with the plain cotton, so I did 40 on cotton and about 100 on leather.

The edge was soooooo much smoother than the last shave. I'm not sure if it was a crox thing or the additional time on the stone, but this felt much more like the Clauss does right off of 1u film. I'm VERY happy with how this has gone.

Now the strange thing about it all is that after the shave and wiping the blade and hit it with 20 laps on leather(which I always do) I did the ol' floating over leg hair test and did not get nearly as strong of results as I did pre shave. Not sure what that was about and how the next shave will be, but this one was top notch. I will probably be shaving again with it as is with plain cotton and leather and see if I get the same results, then I will use the crox cotton and compare. I need to see if the crox was the issue before or if I just didn't take enough time on the Cnat.

Fun stuff...the experimentation is really interesting

 

[Slash McCoy]

Glad you are having some success!

I should mention that the HF 4-way block is a viable option. The plates snap off and you can clamp and glue them to a suitable substrate, if desired, for some improvement in flatness and convenience. The nice thing is at that price point they are pretty much expendable and you won't be afraid to get tough with a heavy repair job, or put a quick edge on a pocketknife.

I would point out that the insanely large bevel angle of an un-slimmed GD probably makes it kind of sensitive to any convexing of the edge. So dont be surprised if CrOx on any sort of hanging strop gives a meh edge for these razors. Not speaking from experience because I am not really a CrOx guy or a pasted hanging strop guy, just extrapolating. It is different, using a pasted hanging strop with a 19+ degree bevel vs a nice 16 degree bevel. (I believe). Anyway it will make a nice experiment.

 

[147_Grain]

One problem with grit ratings is that there are several different rating scales. There is ANSI grit, used by Norton and other US and Canadian manufacturers. There is JIS grit used by Naniwa and other Asian companies.

Thank you for your very informative post! A nitpick - I don't think Norton uses ANSI grits to rate all of their stones, as ANSI 1500 grit has an average particle diameter of 3 microns whereas the Norton 8000 grit stone has an average particle size of 3 microns and the Norton 4000 grit stone has an average particle size of 5 microns.

I'm not sure the Japanese synthetic waterstone makers use JIS grits for their high grit stones either, as the particle sizes don't match each other (Suehiro Gokumyo calls a 0.5u stone 20k grit, Shapton calls a 0.49u stone 30k grit) or the JIS chart extrapolated to those numbers, or sometimes even the JIS chart at lower grits (Shapton 8k has an advertised 1.84 micron particle size and Shapton 12k is 1.2 micron, JIS 8000 is 1.2 micron).

Also, I would like to complain that every grit comparison chart that I've seen lists ANSI grit sizes a little differently.