Espresso machine questions

[gregdreg]

Hello gents,
I am doing the research for a future purchase of a espresso machine and I would appreciate your opinions. Here are the ones on my shortlist.

Starbucks barista. It has good reviews, I like the look/size of it, and I really like the price for a used model.

Gaggia classic. Good reviews, I like the look/size, a bit pricey

Lelit PL 041.

Rancilio Silvia. This one looks like a real winner but it is at the top of what I want to spend.

Also can I get away with using a Baratza maestro grinder or will I need to buy something along the lines of a Rancilio Rocky?

Thanks. -Greg

 

[bald1]

Spend some time at coffeegeek.com and you'll be rewarded with a LOT of solid information relative to all your questions above.

 

[johnmrson]

I've got the Ranchillio Silvia and it is a great machine. It will literally last you a lifetime. I don't know anything about the others but make sure you get one that has a brass boiler. As for grinders, most serious coffee drinkers spend more on their grinder than their machine. As long as you get something that has lots of adjustment (and step adjustment is fine) you should be OK. Surprisingly the Sunbeam EM0480 grinder gets very good write ups and I know a couple of people with them that say they out perform grinders that are 10x the price.

 

[gregdreg]

I have spent most of the day at coffee geek and there is a lot of information there, so much so that my head is spinning a bit.

 

[Lynchmeister]

Hi Greg,

I'm also pretty new to espresso - maybe a few months into it. It all started when my Black and Decker burr grinder (that revved higher and faster than a "crotch-rocket") went kaputt. My wife and I, who were primarily French Press and Mr. Coffee Drip drinkers, decided to shell out for a grinder in the $100 ballpark and we eventually settled on the Maestro. For its intended purpose, i.e., no espresso/Turkish, it's a great value for a great grinder and I have no regrets...other than the fact that being forced to re-evaluate my whole coffee experience at home (due to the broken grinder) led me to think I might want to try espresso. Eh...whatever. I wrote it off as a whim and bought the Maestro for $100 figuring that "at that price, it'll do if I ever get into espresso."

About a week later, a Gaggia Evolution was on its way.

As you might now know, the Maestro was able to grind really fine (what I perceive as powder) and make espresso, but...what I perceive and what the espresso machine needs are clearly two different things. Ok. So now I'm in about $350 all said and done, my brewed coffee is still good (not great), and, not taking my lack of experience into consideration, my espresso sucks.

Aha! The coffee! Fast forward to a couple weeks ago. I've got a Poppery II, 8 lbs. of green, and a nagging resistance to accept the fact that the coffee is only half of the problem...my grinder is just not capable of grinding for espresso. There. I said it.

The home roasted coffee made a world of difference in the brewed cup, but again, the espresso was thin, runny, bitter, and pulling entirely too fast. Ok, fine. Let's take another look at grinders...or not. $350+ for a suitable electric coffee mill? That just wasn't feasible at this time, so I ended up ordering a Hario Skerton ceramic burr hand grinder, which coincidentally just arrived last night.

I'll let you know how it all turns out, but in the meantime, let me summarize by saying this:

Save yourself some time, money, and frustration. If you're serious about espresso, consider the grinder first, machine second. If you're considering a Silvia and a Maestro, my suggestion would be to swap the Silvia for a more inexpensive Gaggia (Classic/Baby/Evolution, etc.) and sink the difference plus the $100 from the Maestro into a Rancilio Rocky (~$350) or Baratza Vario (~$450).

Alternatively, if you're budget is a bit tighter, I'd recommend the same Gaggia machines paired with a hand grinder from Orphan Espresso or a new Kyocera or Hario.

Good luck!

 

[Newfie]

All good information and advice above, and I'd agree with it all, except I respectfully have to disagree with the statement "A step adjustment is fine", but that is a disagreement without knowing exactly what you expect from your machine. Reasons for my disagreement are explained below.

First, when looking at equipment, you have to set priorities. You WILL NOT get good coffee with old or inferior beans. You've probably read enough on CoffeeGeek already to know that I'm not the first to say that. You can spend thousands on a grinder and an Espresso machine and still only be able to manage less than acceptable coffee. Generally, the accepted age is less than 2 weeks (again, I'm not the first to say that).

Next is the grinder. Johnmrson said above that serious coffee drinkers spend more on a grinder than they do on the machine, and truer words were never spoken.

Now you choose the machine. A Gaggia Classic and the Miss Silvia can both make excellent coffee, and many consider these to be the minimum "entry level" machines. From there, the sky is the limit.

Next on the "purchase priority" list is a decent - good tamper. When you buy a machine, the very first thing you do is toss that little plastic *** tamper that comes with it and forget you ever saw it. (On a personal note, I find it hilarious that you can buy a high end $2000 Espresso machine, and they include a 25 cent piece of plastic to tamp the grinds that came out of your high end grinder worth up to $1000 or more.) Many feel Reg Barber is "The thing" to have, but that's a personal choice. As long as it fits the portafilter basket nicely, and feels good in your hand, you have what you need.

After that come decent cups, bottomless portafilters, digital thermometers to learn to stretch milk properly for Cappuccinos, electronics (PIDs specifically, to control boiler temps properly, which depending on your machine, may be highly recommended), and so on.

If you don't have easy access to fresh roasted beans (which are worlds above more important for Espresso than any other method of brewing coffee, IMHO) you might want to consider a home roaster, from the Behmor, to the Hottop and the GeneCafe, and others too numerous to mention here.

I own a Gaggia MDF grinder. I would consider this grinder to be the absolute minimum for Espresso and would recommend to anyone who can afford it to go higher right at the start. I've put ~ 350 # of beans through that grinder since I bought it new, and am well aware of it's limitations. The MDF is a stepped grinder, and many people who own these do a "Stepless Mod" of one sort or another (which I did). Before I made it stepless, a certain setting might grind too coarsely, and the very next click down would choke the machine. There is no in between, and it's my opinion that when I did make a great Espresso, it was more a case of luck than the equipment. I've never used a Rancillio Rocky (also a stepped grinder) but you will often find reviews on them where the only negative comments are "Hopper has limited volume of only 10-12 ozs." If that's the only negative someone can find, it has to be a pretty damn good grinder. However, as implied above, I'm not a fan of grinders with a Stepped adjustment. However, that being said, from what I've read, it's a more desirable unit than the MDF I have. The main differences (I believe) are the burr size and speed.

I also own a Gaggia Classic, which I would also recommend to be a good starting point. As noted in the grinders, the Rancillio unit (the Miss Silvia) is generally considered to be a better machine than the Gaggia, and is in fact, the highest selling home unit, and I've seen them in small coffee bars. What scared me away from it is the numerous comments on the machine's temperature stability.

I hope I didn't scare you away from pursuing this wonderful hobby. I just want to be sure when someone starts talking about this "coffee racket" that you can't get away with expecting to spend a few hundred dollars and get top end brews.

However, with a lot of research and some extra saving for the initial purchase, you can start with equipment that will last you a life time.

Until, that is, when a whole new level of *ADs and upgraditis start!!!

 

[gregdreg]

Hi Lynchmeister,

It is funny that you mention the hario because my birthday is coming up in a few weeks and I asked my wife for a hario mini and a 3 cup moka pot for use at work, (since I dropped my 3 cup bodum french press the other day ) why do you think you can't get a good espresso from the maestro?


Hi Newfie,

There was a awesome independent coffee roaster about 2 miles from my house but they went out of business after they had a fire that started in their roaster . I have been buying all my beans at trader joes since. I am also interested in eventually roasting my own beans but I am not even going to look into that yet. (my head might explode )
I am definitely not scared of starting this, I am over all of my shaving AD's and ready for some new ones, I just want to make sure I get started on the right path.

Sorry if this question sounds stupid but if i were to buy something like a rocky would i still be able to use the grinder to grind coarse for my french press or mid grind for occasional drip when I have guest, or are these machines strictly for espresso, it seems that there is only room to fit the portafilter where the machine spits out the grinds.
Does anyone have experience with the starbucks barista? I have found many used ones on the bay and craigslist in the $100 price range also is buying a used machine recommended?

Thanks. -Greg

 

[Newfie]

SNIP<<<

Sorry if this question sounds stupid but if i were to buy something like a rocky would i still be able to use the grinder to grind coarse for my french press or mid grind for occasional drip when I have guest, or are these machines strictly for espresso, it seems that there is only room to fit the portafilter where the machine spits out the grinds.
Does anyone have experience with the starbucks barista? I have found many used ones on the bay and craigslist in the $100 price range also is buying a used machine recommended?

Thanks. -Greg

I use my MDF for Espresso, French Press, Syphon, Moka Pot and Drip when Wifey runs out of her bought stuff. I've never used a Rocky, but would guess yes, it can be used all the way through.

The Starbucks Barista machines I have no experience with.

 

[echelon3]

Sorry if this question sounds stupid but if i were to buy something like a rocky would i still be able to use the grinder to grind coarse for my french press or mid grind for occasional drip when I have guest, or are these machines strictly for espresso
Thanks. -Greg

Great post, Newfie. Plus 1 on it all.
I'd like to add to your answer, just a bit.

Greg, the Rocky is certainly capable of being used for both espresso grinds and press grinds, but it's a colossal PITA to do this.
Settings for proper espresso grinds will and do vary throughout the "life" of the particular batch of espresso you are grinding. It will be true that the grind you set Friday will need to be set differently on Sunday, for example. Add to that the fact that you moved the setting for a press on Saturday and you can see the problem.
I'm not saying that it can't be done, or that there are not others doing it, but I don't envy them.
If you can possibly afford a grinder dedicated to espresso, do it.

And there is nothing wrong with purchasing a used grinder. Many have bought Rockys (or whatever) and upgraded at a later time, so there is a healthy secondary market.

The Starbucks Barrista is a re-badged grinder from Maestro, or at least it was, and should be avoided. It can't grind in either the manner you wish, nor in the quality you will require.

 

[Lynchmeister]

Hi Greg, I have to steer you away from the Maestro (as an espresso grinder) because I have one and it simply does not grind fine or consistent enough to make good espresso. I was told exactly what I'm telling you now (when I was in your shoes a short while ago), but I'm a bit hard headed in that regard, so...I tried it anyway. Guess what? The espresso wasn't good.

Like I said, I have a Hario, but...it literally just arrived yesterday and I haven't had a chance to try it yet, so I can't comment (but I will!). I also just roasted up some Monkey Espresso Blend from Sweet Maria's last night, so I might try some tonight, but ideally I'd like to give the beans another day to de-gas before I try pulling a shot from them.

Again, not sure what your budget is, but here's what I'd do if I were in your shoes, knowing what I know now.

1. Buy a good (not necessarily &#252;ber-expensive) espresso machine.
2. Hopefully get the Hario for your birthday.
3. Use Hario to grind for espresso.
4. Decide if you want to continue.
5. Yes? Good.
6. Buy a Vario. They are stepless (See Newfie's post above). They have macro and micro adjustments making the transition from espresso to whatever a breeze (see echelon3's post above).

 

[gregdreg]

New questions, doser or doserless? I do not want a machine for espresso only, it must be able to do press and drip. Do you store your beans in the hopper or measure out what you need and add it to the hopper per grind?

Here is my short list after doing my homework today.
Rocky rancilio
Rocky doserless grinder
Gaggia MDF
a Ascaso Grinder

I went to Sur la table today just to look at what they had, The salesman was well informed and he tried steering me to the Nespresso I was impressed with its performance but I don't think the whole pod thing is for me.
Thanks -Greg

 

[johnmrson]

My preference is definitely for a grinder with a doser. I've got an MD Domus la Cimbali grinder. It's a stepped grinder but has more than enough setting to do what you want it to. Having said that, once you've dialed the grinder in for your beans you don't want to keep changing the settings.

The salesman you were talking to was taking out of his hat if he was steering you to a pod machine.

 

[gregdreg]

In the salesman's defense the store did not have a huge selection on hand mostly super automatics, (no thank you) a few poorly reviewed semi's and the nespresso.

 

[echelon3]

New questions, doser or doserless? I do not want a machine for espresso only, it must be able to do press and drip. Do you store your beans in the hopper or measure out what you need and add it to the hopper per grind?

If it must do double duty, a doser would drive you mad.
Go doserless.

Storing beans in the hopper, assuming you only purchase a hopperfull or limit your home roasts to that equivalent, exposes the beans to no more oxygen than continually opening a bag or jar.

 

[Scotto]

Don't store beans in the hopper. I use Mason jars, but you can use anything that has a good seal. A doser can be nice since it helps break up the inevitable clumps that form in the grind, but I would agree it can be a PITA if you are using it for drip also. I strongly recommend a stepless adjustment in the grinder - life is much easier that way. I have a Mazzer mini for espresso which I love. My Rocky got relegated to drip duty years ago since I found it didn't cut the mustard for espresso.

Don't skimp on the grinder. You'll regret it if you do. Check out used machines, eBay, etc. if you have to.

 

[syzygy]

I have a Sylvia and Rocky (doserless) - both fantastic. I ditched the original portafilter (PF) and bought a 21 gram bottomless PF - that made a HUGE difference. It is a terrific learning tool - tells you if your grind is right, if it's distributed and tamped evenly in the PF and indicates the freshness of the bean as well. I use a C-flat Reg Barber tamper as well and it is very consistent and really nice to use. This whole package is just about the best thing out there for the money. If you are ever on Vancouver Island and have the chance to meet Reg Barber he is a incredibly nice guy and really excited about what he does.
Now, my Sylvia is nicely heated up and I have to get a double very short americano on the go.

 

[gregdreg]

If it must do double duty, a doser would drive you mad.
Go doserless.

Storing beans in the hopper, assuming you only purchase a hopperfull or limit your home roasts to that equivalent, exposes the beans to no more oxygen than continually opening a bag or jar.

Awesome I was leaning toward the doserless already. I didn't think storing in the hopper was a good idea for two reasons, the freshness of the beans as well as the ability to measure out just the amount you want to use.

I would agree it can be a PITA if you are using it for drip also. I strongly recommend a stepless adjustment in the grinder - life is much easier that way.

Are the rocky grinders stepless?

Now, my Sylvia is nicely heated up and I have to get a double very short americano on the go.

Hey no gloating

You guys are so helpful. Thanks -Greg

 

[Newfie]

SNIP<<<
Are the rocky grinders stepless?
>>>>SNIP

No, they aren't. However, do a search on Home Barista and Coffee Geek, I believe they can easily have a stepless mod done. I did my MDF for $1.39 and some tools I had in the garage.

 

[Dink]

Not to add to the confusion but a stepless grinder is a PITA to switch back and forth between brew methods, on my Ascaso I think it takes some insane amount of turns of the adjustment knob to go from espresso to drip, something like 80 turns!

Cheers,
David

 

[Shaveslave]

I'm lucky enough to have the both the Silvia and the Rocky. I consider myself an unbearable coffee snob and I love both machines.

I'll make the story short, I've been through more machines than I want to remember. These two are the last I'll ever own.

Do buy good beans though. Intelligensia, out of Chicago, is excellent.

Enjoy.