Silly question if I may. There is some discussion around smooth, harsh and keen edges which leads me to this question.
Can an edge be too sharp?
Can an edge be too sharp?
Edge Sharpness
- Thread starter ajduplessis
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Simple answer is yes as it may irritate your skin or not be durable enough to last through an entire shave, but there are many different methods to tone an ultra-sharp edge down so that you retain the sharpness yet shed the not so good qualities.
Yes, and no. When steel is sharpened, the edge becomes thinner. That makes the edge "sharper". However, as the edge becomes thinner, it becomes more brittle and can start to crumble leaving a harsh (not smooth) edge. Some steels have finer grain structure and can be honed to a thinner, finer, sharper edge before break-down occurs. Grain structure depends not only on the composition of the steel, but the tempering process. I have one straight razor that has brittle steel; I cannot get an edge sharp enough for shaving my beard without it starting to microchip. I have tried many different methods: synthetic and natural hones, tape and no tape, pasted strops, etc. and nothing seems to work. Maybe one day I will figure it out.
The level of sharpness you need in a razor edge depends upon the coarseness/toughness of your beard. The level of smoothness you need in a razor edge depends upon the sensitivity of your skin. That is why there is such a great debate on the "best" DE blades and the best method of honing a straight razor. What will work best for you will depend on your beard and your skin type. Unfortunately, I have a tough beard and sensitive skin, so getting an edge with suitable sharpness and smoothness can be a challenge.
The level of sharpness you need in a razor edge depends upon the coarseness/toughness of your beard. The level of smoothness you need in a razor edge depends upon the sensitivity of your skin. That is why there is such a great debate on the "best" DE blades and the best method of honing a straight razor. What will work best for you will depend on your beard and your skin type. Unfortunately, I have a tough beard and sensitive skin, so getting an edge with suitable sharpness and smoothness can be a challenge.
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- #4
What methods can I use to tone down an ultra sharp edge? I have very sensitive skin.
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- #5
My whiskers is avarge I would guess, but have very sensitive skin and have ultra sharp edges. I think microchips could be to culprit, not sure how to fix it.
A good one for you to try would be "The Method" as made famous by @Slash McCoy in the honing section of this site. The edge it produces is laser smooth but still hyper sharp. IME I have not had any issues with microchipping with this type of edge YMMV. I shaved with one of these edges Sunday and forgot how easily it goes through my beard, it's like a shavette almost resistance.
microchips could be caused by a couple things
-too small a bevel angle - what is yours?
-large scratches to edge that werent honed out -
-weak(ened) steel
-pitting
figuring out what the issue is with the edge is half the fun of straights.
-too small a bevel angle - what is yours?
-large scratches to edge that werent honed out -
-weak(ened) steel
-pitting
figuring out what the issue is with the edge is half the fun of straights.
do you have a loupe to see whats going on at the edge? do you have a way to measure the blade like a digital caliper?
Depends on the definition of sharp. For example, if the sole point of interest is edge width, then there would be few things sharper than a foil edge. If you've ever shaved with a foil edge, you know that, a few hours later, your skin feels like is suffered blunt force trauma.
Certain types of edges are inherently harsh on my skin, anything done with diamond spray, paste, etc - terrible face feel for me. The cutting efficacy would be good, but my face feels like a lost a fight with a lion. I get the same sensation from some DE blades also.
The edges I hone myself give me the same cutting efficacy, but without that harsh feeling. So, if the main sharpness point of consideration shifts to cutting efficacy, I would say that the edge on the W&B I just honed equals the one I was using to test some sub-micron abrasives. And it's a whole lot smoother for me also.
So I guess it's a matter of perception and expectation. Shaving skills might factor in also.
Its like my junky serrated bread knife cuts some things better than my chef knife which can be, at times, ridiculously sharp.
True microchipping can be the result of a number of things, Steel type, honing pressure, stone choice, bevel angle, time on stone, honing proficiency, etc...
Certain types of edges are inherently harsh on my skin, anything done with diamond spray, paste, etc - terrible face feel for me. The cutting efficacy would be good, but my face feels like a lost a fight with a lion. I get the same sensation from some DE blades also.
The edges I hone myself give me the same cutting efficacy, but without that harsh feeling. So, if the main sharpness point of consideration shifts to cutting efficacy, I would say that the edge on the W&B I just honed equals the one I was using to test some sub-micron abrasives. And it's a whole lot smoother for me also.
So I guess it's a matter of perception and expectation. Shaving skills might factor in also.
Its like my junky serrated bread knife cuts some things better than my chef knife which can be, at times, ridiculously sharp.
True microchipping can be the result of a number of things, Steel type, honing pressure, stone choice, bevel angle, time on stone, honing proficiency, etc...
Well said, I can add nothing to this.
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- #11
Yes I have a loop and the edge looked great. Then Ray mentioned microchips and I borrowed a microscope and examined the edge at x300 magification. It took me a couple of minutes to deal with the shock, it looked like a chainsaw!
Many hours later, inspecting each step in my honing technique I learned a lot. Pressure during honing, stone selection and stroping had significant impacts on the edge and I had to redo many steps over. So now under 300 magnification the edge looks straight without teeth and chips. It’s actually a straight line and not a mountain landscape.
I will shave over the weekend and see if it makes any difference and report back. Either way the experience and knowledge I gained was well worth it. I also think I have a beter undertsanding of a smooth edge vs harsh/keen edge. The blade cuts hanging hairs with ease.
Regards ajduplessis
Many hours later, inspecting each step in my honing technique I learned a lot. Pressure during honing, stone selection and stroping had significant impacts on the edge and I had to redo many steps over. So now under 300 magnification the edge looks straight without teeth and chips. It’s actually a straight line and not a mountain landscape.
I will shave over the weekend and see if it makes any difference and report back. Either way the experience and knowledge I gained was well worth it. I also think I have a beter undertsanding of a smooth edge vs harsh/keen edge. The blade cuts hanging hairs with ease.
Regards ajduplessis
You really don't need more than 100x magnification with a microscope. If it looks good at 100 its a very good edge.
This is a YMMV type of thing. Some people thing a 30x loupe is sufficient. You like 100X. I use 200X. The person above used 300X. I know that DrMatt357 has a video on his use of a 900x scope. No matter what the magnification level, if you do not know how to interpret the image you are viewing, the image is useless. If you can correctly analyze what the picture shows, it is invaluable. Lighting conditions play as important a role as magnification.
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- #14
Maybe my terminology is wrong. The razor is 6/8 so spine to edge would be the bevel angle and laying it flat would determine the angle? So all is good, I did not calulate the angle thou.
I think you might be right about scratches that was not honned out properly as part of the problem(s), also other things like to much slurry, to much pressure also contributed.
Think the steel is good on the dovo and 1930’s The Hamburg Ring. Cutting hairs with the Hamburg does make a ringing sound. That blade is so cool and I will test shave with it over the weekend.
No pitting on either
The process was fun at the end, but during the rehoning and checking through microscope, redoing steps I got a frustrated and felt like quiting at some point to be honest. Persistence did pay off eventually.
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- #15
I also checked my new Dovo Bismarck2 edge and found it to be great out of the box. I now partially understand why it shave beter than the others.
Yes, everyone may use different mag. but my point was that if using a decent quality microscope 100 is plenty.
Many USB type and many more types of loupes are not true magnification numbers. I have seen photos supposedly at 2-300x and they are nowhere near as large and fine as my 100x.
I have a very good loupe also that if the edge looks good on that, the shave will be very nice. It is a lower mag. number but a very good quality so I would say the quality of magnification plays the largest part.
We sometimes get carried away with scopes when you think that this entire process can be done with none.
The degree of magnification and the resolution of the image are two different things. My first USB microscope was only 1.2 MP resolution and the image quality was not nearly good enough. My current microscope is 5 MP resolution and does a nice job. One issue with USB microscopes is that usually a part of the quoted magnification is digital magnification of a digitized image. Thus, while the image may appear larger, you do not gain any new information. Again, YMMV. Use whatever works best for you.
Getting back to the smooth vs sharp thing.
My recent thoughts about that, relate to shave technique. When I choose to create a very sharp edge, I have to adjust my shaving technique. I mean a flatter angle against the skin and a lighter touch. Otherwise, that sharp edge will exfoliate aggressively and be rough on the skin.
So I think you can have a sharp edge without it feeling harsh. You just have to be more careful.
My recent thoughts about that, relate to shave technique. When I choose to create a very sharp edge, I have to adjust my shaving technique. I mean a flatter angle against the skin and a lighter touch. Otherwise, that sharp edge will exfoliate aggressively and be rough on the skin.
So I think you can have a sharp edge without it feeling harsh. You just have to be more careful.
Chan Eil Whiskers
Fumbling about.
I think you also have to ask if the edge is sharp enough (for you) and comfortable (smooth) enough (again, for you).
To me, that's all that matters. I've finally gotten a good enough kit and a good enough set of skills. Unlike Keith I like the finished edge I get off some pasted strops, but that's just me. Maybe my razors could be and will be down the road sharper, but they're okay now.
Happy shaves,
Jim
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- #20
Interesting you mention technique (angle/pressure)....
I shaved today and made some changes in the way I do things. I used more water in my lather and it stayed moist during the entire shave, this was a step forward, how much I dont know. Previously it would dry out in minutes.
During shaving I only focused on keeping a flatter angle and a lighter touch, not sure if I used a lighter touch but I tried. The flatter angle made a significant difference, but my chin is still a problem. I still have a tendency to make the angle steeper on my chin, not sure why. More practice and patience required. At least I reduced skin irritation by 80% so I am extremely happy.
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