Edge Chipping

[Clays Guy]

I am 3 months into straight razor shaving and I am trying to learn to hone them on stones. I have an array of Arkansas stones, several in each grade that I have used for years on knives. Most are Norton stones that are in great shape. They are clean, flat and dressed. I am trying to learn on a gold dollar before I need to refresh one of my Boker's. I did try the Gold dollar on a fine India to take some of the smile out of it and I got some edge chipping. Maybe too much pressure?
I have worked on the razor many times with different progressions including two different LWW's, softs and hards from both Dan's and Norton's. I finished with a wonderful Norton black and I have tried a Norton translucent as well. Many times it ended up shaving pretty well but not quite as well as any any of the three I own, including how the GD came. All three were professionally honed to start. The geometry is a little off on the GD as well.
The chipping seems to continue through my other stones even though the corners appear at least to be chamfered well. Any thoughts on the chipping and how to get just a little more out of my finisher?

Chris

 

[SliceOfLife]

Pictures of the chipping?

 

[Clays Guy]

Hopefully you can see it from the picture.
Chris

 

[SliceOfLife]

That looks like that's just the finish of the India. You need to spend more time on the next stone to clean it.

I'd also clean the surface of the india with some kero or similar and a scouring pad... looks clogged.

 

[Clays Guy]

Thank you. I seem to remember you talked about most anyone can can good razor edges with Arkansas stones but it takes practice to get amazing edges. Any tips?

 

[Steve56]

Agree with @SliceOfLife - you get that with rough coarse stones and coarse diamond plates. Move up the grit scale a notch or two and it should dissapear.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Practice.

You need to find the right consistency medium (oil mix) for you and your stone, and also get used to getting a feel for how much pressure to use. Arks are like most hard stones with good abrasive properties... they can do a LOT once you know how to control the contact between the steel and the stone. That's balancing the interfacing medium and the pressure.

I own a LOT of stones. I've picked the best of the best of hundreds of coticules. I've tried dozens of Jnats. Nothing gives me a better edge than a skillfully finished Ark edge. Plenty of stones give edges almost as good and much easier, but truth be told, I don't think a natural stone exists that is superior for producing an ultra-refined edge than a good arkansas... nor do I think we've yet made a better synthetic.

But if you throw water or a overly viscous mineral oil on it and just act like it's a synthetic hone... you're not going to get the most out of an arkansas. Arks (and some other novaculites) need you to learn technique more than possibly anything else. To really get the most out of them, you have to develop a sense for what's happening on the stone and on the edge and on the bevel of your tool, and how to adjust what you're doing to control that.

 

[Clays Guy]

Thanks for the write up guys. I will probably go to a Washita from here. Can I expect all of the chipping to be gone then or will it progressively go away in a couple of stones?
That's good news to hear about the Arkansas edges being so good in experienced hands. Hopefully I can work my way up to those great edges. Slice of Life, I really do appreciate you taking the time to elaborate because I do want to make my Arkansas stones work.

Chris

 

[Seveneighth]

Practice.

You need to find the right consistency medium (oil mix) for you and your stone, and also get used to getting a feel for how much pressure to use. Arks are like most hard stones with good abrasive properties... they can do a LOT once you know how to control the contact between the steel and the stone. That's balancing the interfacing medium and the pressure.

I own a LOT of stones. I've picked the best of the best of hundreds of coticules. I've tried dozens of Jnats. Nothing gives me a better edge than a skillfully finished Ark edge. Plenty of stones give edges almost as good and much easier, but truth be told, I don't think a natural stone exists that is superior for producing an ultra-refined edge than a good arkansas... nor do I think we've yet made a better synthetic.

But if you throw water or a overly viscous mineral oil on it and just act like it's a synthetic hone... you're not going to get the most out of an arkansas. Arks (and some other novaculites) need you to learn technique more than possibly anything else. To really get the most out of them, you have to develop a sense for what's happening on the stone and on the edge and on the bevel of your tool, and how to adjust what you're doing to control that.

Great post

 

[duke762]

I will probably go to a Washita from here. Can I expect all of the chipping to be gone then or will it progressively go away in a couple of stones?

I also suffered through this problem when I started honing also.

Remove the chipping with the Washita. It will not go away as you go through your progression. An India is quite coarse for a bevel setter. I've used one before and had the same problem. I didn't remove all the striations from the India with my progression and ended up in flake city. Honing pressure can also be a factor, especially with coarse stria still on the bevel. Stria plus pressure and the stria start to act like the score marks on one of those little snap the end off knives. The steel at the edge will have preformed score marks to fail on. I also came from a knife honing back ground and am a heavy Ark user. With knives the honer uses a lot more pressure to kind of "make" the stone work. With straights I had to slow down and let the stone do the work.

I've chased a full Ark progression for a long time. Yeah, I can do it but have found better ways to a natural progression.

But I will never give up my Ark finishes! How to max out an Ark edge? Max out the edge on the stone before it. I like to ease on to my Ark finishers. I max out on a Coticule, then an unnamed slate which refines the edge a little more and finally Black/Trans. Practice, practice, do you have magnification? Practice.....

I own a LOT of stones. I've picked the best of the best of hundreds of coticules. I've tried dozens of Jnats. Nothing gives me a better edge than a skillfully finished Ark edge. Plenty of stones give edges almost as good and much easier, but truth be told, I don't think a natural stone exists that is superior for producing an ultra-refined edge than a good arkansas... nor do I think we've yet made a better synthetic.

+1 Slash! Freaky how something that sharp can also seem so reluctant to cut skin. An Ark finish is definitely worth any learning curve or hassle.

 

[Clays Guy]

@duke762,
So are you saying the GD edge is unrecoverable from here? If so, it's just a GD.
I can certainly relate to your background and I understand your explanation about the score marks being places for the edge to fail on.

Another question regarding refreshing only. I have two "good" razors that were professionally honed but have not needed any refreshing yet. Is a good translucent or surgical black sufficient to refresh or would you recommend a synthetic first?

Chris

 

[RenoRichard]

@duke762,
So are you saying the GD edge is unrecoverable from here?

Another question regarding refreshing only. I have two "good" razors that were professionally honed but have not needed any refreshing yet. Is a good translucent or surgical black sufficient to refresh or would you recommend a synthetic first?

Chris

Chris,

I would dull that GD edge until the chipping is gone and just start over to set the bevel. My belief is you use the highest grit stone you can to set a bevel, as the scratch patterns from rough stones are deep and take a long time to fade. Chipping tends to stay around for longer than you want if you just keep it and go up in grits. But, it is likely quite possible to successfully re-hone that GD.

Synthetics are for most easier to learn to use, as natural stones are each somewhat unique in their particular characteristics. That means with a natural there is both the honing to learn, as well as the particular stone. With a good synthetic it is just the one variable, the honing.

Most of these fellows here have much more experience than me with Arkansas stones. I have a Dan's translucent I found in my shave cabinet, but it is leaving too rough a scratch pattern as the stone is prepped now. I too could use some advice on preparing this stone . I am still trying to dial in an Arkansas edge that's better than the edge I get from my JNAT or Thringian stones. I believe it's there, having shaved with one of Jarrod's Superior Shave edges recently, but so far is still eluding me.

Richard

 

[Dagabose]

My first guess would be it’s from a course stone. I found it easier to learn on synthetics, and then transition to natural stones. It was also a challenge for me to try and learn on a wonky GD I bought myself. The geometry of the ones I first bought were seriously out of wack, and I couldn’t figure out how to correct them at the time. I ended up getting some vintage ones from a reputable person that didn’t have crazy geometry issues, and was able to learn how to hone easier. I do still buy some GD every now and then to see if I can figure out how to fix the geometry issues, but it was really challenging for me to start off with trying to fix the issues and learn how to hone at the same time on them.

 

[duke762]

No, not ruined, just have to hone off the chipping on the Washita until chips are gone. Probably no need to bread knife the razor. You can if you want but I'd leave them on the edge so I could see when they are gone. Touch ups are fine on the Trans/Black stones. You have to work pretty hard at ruining a razor. Just have to re do the bevel set.