Edge characteristics of different honing materials.

[Tester28]

Background:

Im just beginning to wet my toes in the area of honing...doing a lot of reading
up as I wait for my first ever straight razor to arrive. It's a brand new, custom made razor in
Silversteel (DIN 1.2210) with a full hollow grind. From what I understand, the maker does top shelf
work and the razors are delivered in true shave ready condition. So my job, as I see it, will not be to
do the hard yards of setting the bevel etc...at least for a few months. But to maintain and keep that
edge sharp and smooth for as long as I can.

What I am looking for in an edge is of course a very sharp edge that is supremely comfortable, smooth,
almost gentle on the face.

For reasons of simplicity, Im looking at just one finishing stone...be it JNAT, Coticule or something else.
I have some very basic, entry level questions though:

1. Is there a difference in a shave-ready edge created on synthetic stones, JNAT and Coticule? I sense they
are significant differences and I'm hoping you would know exactly what they are generally speaking. In other
words, can you tell what kind of stone a razor was finished on just by laying it on your face and making a few strokes?

2. Are some of these techniques interchangeable? Example: Can you raise a Mikawa Shiro slurry on a Coticule
and combine the best of two worlds? Or will the honing particles in both stones contradict each other and actually
cause harm to the blade?

3. Also, what is the frequency with which most of you take to the hone to maintain the edge. I know
that this varies depending on how the edge behaves on your face...if you need to hone, the edge will
let your face know etc....but just curious as too what that period is for you guys...every week, every 3 days?

Thanks

 

[MO1]

I personally prefer Jnats. You can tune in your edge with the tomo slurry to your liking, my edges are both very sharp and forgiving, but it takes some time to get to know your stone and possibly the slurry stones you use on it, let alone the steel and razor you are working with.
Reading feedback is key, if something feels wrong then it probably is.(be it surface condition, edge condition or maybe even large stray particles in the slurry)
Keith (tomonagura) and doc has some good YouTube videos.

I do have a coticule but these stones vary alot in hardness and in the garnets particle size from my understanding.
My coticule edge is nowhere near as sharp and smooth as my jnat edges.
Synthetics works, mine (shapton glass) tend to produce a slightly harsh edge.

You can use mikawa slurry stones on a coticule, but it doesn't make alot of sense, as you will get garnet particles from the coticule in your slurry.
May give great results with a very fine and hard coticule, but will probably not give so great results on most (this is me speculating though) most will use the dilucot method with coticule slurry.
I have used coticule slurry on a jnat when I wanted more speed to set the bevel, but that was the only reason. And the reason I used it on a jnat and not my coticule is that my jnat's honing surface is bigger. Only done that once though. But I do it more often on my 2k when I want abit more speed.

I have a few razors and I like to experiment with my stones on what edges I can produce. So I don't really hone when I 'need' to. A few times a week for me atleast. But that does not mean I need to, I just want to.
You will probably need to hone alot in the start to get to the edge you want, you will get better the more you hone.

 

[Tester28]

My coticule edge is nowhere near as sharp and smooth as my jnat edges.

Thank you for chiming in with some excellent info.....yes, I have heard a coticule
edge being described as 'mellow'. I take that to mean that they're smooth....but
possibly at the expense of sharpness. I wonder if I should be looking at a coticule
with increased hardness...but I would be relying totally on the seller's interpretation
of that. Might ask around on the Belgian coticule forum.

Appreciate the warning about the shapton synthetics.

 

[MasterOfPups]

I have coticules, thuringians, and several jnats. For a one stone approach, and if you don't need to do any bevel sets on old, misused razors, I would vote for a jnat in the lv4 - 4.5 territory. They are much easier to get a super keen edge with, and come in large enough sizes to not be too challenging for a beginner.
My vote would be for one in at least a 3x5 format, as it will be big enough to get the entire blade on and make a decent stroke. When you are learning on a narrow hone, it is easy to lift the spine and roll the edge over. Then you have to start all over.
And if you do go the jnat route, be wary of ebay sellers. There are several reliable sellers on Etsy, and several others with established internet businesses.

 

[Sdm84]

I would venture to say that when all is said and done unless you were able to look at the edge under magnification and see the signature scratch patterns of the various stones the average (or even above average) shaver could not tell the difference in edges.

A coticule edge for example can be smooth, mellow, crispy, keen or any variation in between depending on the stone. I have some Coticules that put an edge just as keen as some jnats.

In my opinion we put too much emphasis on the sharpness of the edge and not enough on comfort.

Your skill as a honer also plays into the equation. So does stropping.

I have a “rock collection” because I like to experiment, but in reality my synthetic stones up to 8k and a finish stone du jour (usually a coticule) is enough for me.

YMMV


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Njguy1977]

I have coticules, films, and arks. In my opinion it depends on the blade material. I have had sheffield and usa steel hone so sharp and so smooth on a coticule that you dont feel a thing when in use. Ive had solingen steel be too hard for a coti and then I use films to get the keen edge I want. If its too harsh I do 10 light laps on a coticule and all is good. I think its more then just which stone gives the best edge. I think its more of which media (jnat, coti, ark, film, etc...) give the best edge for the type of steel you have based on your level of comfort and sharpness.

Larry

 

[ajduplessis]

I have yet to meet someone that can correctly identify finishing stone type based on edge performance, those that do are full of BS. So called experts will fail blind tests consistently.

There is a difference in honing and maintaining an edge. Maintenance is done on leather/linen only while refreshing (honing) IME is required maybe once a year, twice if you only own one razor YMMV.

 

[duke762]

Learning to shave, hone and strop at the same time can be a daunting challenge. If you are motivated to really master these skills, you will be rewarded with a extremely close, comfortable, almost unbelievable shave. Wish I had started learning this when my kids were little.

There are lots of different experiences and opinions to be absorbed and sorted through. Information overload can be a problem for beginners. My best answers to your questions would be......

1. If it was my razor and first shave, I'd want an edge known for smoothness and reluctance to cut skin. Arkansas or Coticule edge. I've always read that Natural edges are smoother and I have experience with Coticules and Arks. An Arkansas edge really does seem to me to be reluctant to cut skin unless I mess up really bad. I doubt I could tell an excellent Arkansas edge for anything else until I started bleeding.

2. My experience with Japanese stones is absolutely zero. I have a few Coticules and generally use an Ark after. The Coticule edges I've used have been extremely comfortable. I have, and sometimes frequently use unorthodox
techniques and methods. Freely ask questions here. I'd hold off on experimenting too much at first. Until you've mastered at least one method to finish a razor. I don't think I'd like to learn to hone on a new razor and a finishing stone.

3. I like to hone and I use old junk razors so my shave count is way down there. I see edge deterioration after 7 to 10 shaves. Your mileage will vary greatly.

Strops maintain an edge. Synthetic hones most likely will yield a shorter learning curve. Natural stones take time to master. Practice on beater razors!! Enjoy the journey.

 

[bluesman 7]

3. Also, what is the frequency with which most of you take to the hone to maintain the edge. I know
that this varies depending on how the edge behaves on your face...if you need to hone, the edge will
let your face know etc....but just curious as too what that period is for you guys...every week, every 3 days?

When I started with a straight, the edge needed attention after maybe a dozen shaves. Now that number is usually in the neighborhood of 100 shaves due to better shaving and stropping technique. I personally like the signature of an edge that has been stropped and shaved into condition. Since the stropping and shaving over time does change the nature and feel of the edge, the difference between synthetic and different natural edges decreases as the number of shaves since the razor was honed increases.

 

[Ultimatezap]

Personally, if you're "waiting for your first ever straight razor to arrive" (especially a nice custom) I'd look at asking a well-known forum member to work on an edge for you. There are so many moving parts to the straight shaving experience at first (it gets easier...) that it would be best to be able to concentrate completely on the shave itself without worrying about getting an edge. Doc (member here) did his thing for me (he uses Jnats) close to a year ago now and it was really, really good. It was a cool vintage American razor with more of a smile than I was comfortable with at the time.

I'm a full-on Jnat guy myself, but that's because I really enjoy the whole honing side to straits. (Aforementioned smiling straight now included). You can do it cheap and easy with films, but that never interested me. I love the feel, the colors, the primitive, slightly volcanic smells of Jnats, the whole figuring it out thing (why doesn't razor B get the same edge from the same stones and technique as razor A? (Mmmm, gotta try something else... Oh goody... ))

Reach out...

 

[MO1]

As alot of natural stones are flexible it is hard to say that "this stone" gives "that edge", the results are endless, with different slurry, how much you dilute the slurry or break it down and how it works with the steel in question. it's more about getting to know your stone and razor and tune in that edge to your liking, especially with jnats. But that is also the reason I like them so much.

 

[Namkcakram]

I’ve got plenty of each type hone you listed and have used each on razors and multiple tools and knives as well.

Knowing what I know now, I’d say different stones play well or play poorly together with different steels and blade geometries but Cotis, Arks, and JNATs can all get your edge “there”. There are aspects that make each convenient or inconvenient for different blades and situations.

If you don’t even have your first razor yet, don’t rush out and buy any stones yet. You could probably find a serious hone expert on here who’s honed that exact razor on different stones, but you don’t even know if that razor will be your long term preference!

My personal example is I went initially into old British razors anywhere from heavy to “full hollow”(not as hollow as some), but then on a whim I bought a few cheap American vintage hollows (REALLY full hollow) and those cheap razors changed everything for me. Now I find most of my collection is cheap old Americans with a few wide heavy European full hollows and a few English choppers for variety. If I had made my stone decisions on my first few razors I would gone all in on JNATs, but now I find my lightweight American and British hollows pair best with Arks, and my wider heavier European hollows like a Filarmonica 14 all pair best with Coticules. The choppers all seem to like JNATs for me, but not every blade is the same in use for me.

If you really want to be minimalist, id wait until you find your razor niche and then get stones that match up well. For a wide hollow from koraat (I’m assuming), personally I’d guess Coticule but I’ve never honed or shaved with one from koraat in that steel.

*edit forgot to mention I feel Coticules are the best all around mid range even on blades where it’s not my preferred finisher. I’d run a Coticule over any 3-12k synth progression, so from that sense I think a coti is never money wasted long term.

 

[alx gilmore]

Knowing what I know now, I’d say different stones play well or play poorly together with different steels and blade geometries but Cotis, Arks, and JNATs can all get your edge “there”. There are aspects that make each convenient or inconvenient for different blades and situations.

If you really want to be minimalist, id wait until you find your razor niche and then get stones that match up well.

I like this approach,

Alx

 

[Namkcakram]

I like this approach,

Alx

Yeah for me acquiring a huge rock pile worked out fine because I’m predominantly into hand tool woodworking, but I think if you’re looking to shave and truly be a minimalist your whole kit should be complimentary. It only makes sense to start with what blade type works best on your hair and skin since that’s the only variable you can’t change here.

 

[Slash McCoy]

You should never need to reset the bevel, ever, on that razor. Most likely, all you would ever need is a finisher. You will want a bevel setter and full progression for any new razors that you buy, or any fleabay rescues or antique shop finds that are not fully shave ready when you get them. That will be most of them, even ones that the seller declares to be shave ready.

Just like many synth honers do not fully understand naturals, many natural honers do not fully understand synthetics. On the face of it, synthetic honing media appears very simple. Rub razor on rock or film until sharp. Done. Repeat when necessary. However experience and refinement of technique can make a tremendous difference in final result.

I never have to rehone my razors, once I have honed them initially. My maintenance regimen involves the use of a specially prepared balsa strop post-shave, and the usual clean hanging leather strop pre-shave. My edges are sharper than any other edges I have experienced, and they stay that way, forever. They shave quite comfortably, too, once you grow accustomed to the requisite low shave angle, and develop good skin stretching discipline.

At one time, a coticule edge on a razor was considered very sharp. At one time, a Norton 8k edge (Well, TBH, the old Nortons were better than the new ones IMHO) was considered quite sharp. The Jnat invasion has upped the game of natural honers considerably. So has the growing appreciation of ultra hard quartz based rocks such as translucent or black Arkansas, and the growing cult following of various other naturals not seen in large numbers, such as Thuringians or Charnley Forests. We, or I should say many of us, are spoiled by the easy availability of very fine and high quality synthetics, these days. Synthetics are known for sometimes creating edges that are not so kind to the face, but this can now safely be regarded as urban legend now that lapping film and balsa methods have more fully developed.

Yes, a coti or jnat edge can be quite comfortable, but not more comfortable than the edges I get, and others get, from a more refined synth process that we call "The Method". And a method edge is sharper, which is IMHO almost never a bad thing. I don't use a full three pass shave. I gitter done with one pass. I suggest you explore fully that link and all threads linked from it, before spending any money.

Films and synthetic stones are not challenging, compared to slurried naturals. Honing on naturals is a hobby unto itself, and very enjoyable. So there is that. This in part is because it is challenging. IOW, difficult. Jnats in particular can be a deep dark pit of mystery for the beginning and intermediate honer, and sometimes a deep money pit as well. For some, it is worth it, but honestly I cannot in good faith recommend Jnat honing to a beginner. And I am on the fence with coticules, as well. The Method is a very inexpensive system that offers incredible edges VERY early in your honing journey, usually by the second attempt, and incorporates an extremely effective maintenance regimen that keeps the edge very very sharp, but comfortable, too. My suggestion is start out with The Method, and then explore naturals, beginning with a large coticule. Then sink a couple hundred into a good Jnat and a couple of Nagura. Then try all the other stuff as you get the urge.

Since you have only one razor, I suggest you purchase another one, perhaps a cheaper one such as a nice American vintage production razor from Union Cutlery, Genco, or the various hardware store rebrands. A good one can be had shave ready for under $40, sometimes only $15 to $20. A Gold Dollar W59 is probably the best value there is, in a new razor. Get one shave ready and you got a very good shaver for chimp change. What I am getting at is you ought to have two (or more) razors early on. When the first one is dull, that one will be your razor forr learning to hone on. The other takes over as your daily driver for a while. And all you will need is a finisher, which can be as simple and cheap as a piece of 1u lapping film on acrylic or tile. There are ways to make a 1u or 12k edge much more comfortable, and the sharpness will be quite adequate. Learning to refresh your edge with a finisher is the gateway drug into honing. Cheap and simple, with a huge return for your efforts. Once you have that down, you will want to learn to set a bevel and run a progression. Then, how to repair badly damaged or defective blades. You don't need to learn the entire kit and process all in one bite.