Edge at 4000, after 8000 gone, what did I do?

[CpnStumpy]

This is I think the 3rd time I started from scratch with this clover Morley and sons.

Bevel set at Naniwa 1000
Back at it on the Naniwa 3000

Now it's shaving hair on my leg

Norton 4000, and now it's tree topping

Norton 8000 and now it's smoothly gliding over the hair without cutting ****

What the heck? I'm doing a combination of the rough and fast approach shown by DrMatt357 followed by Lynn's 20+20 circles + 20 X's, until the 8k where I'm only doing Lynn's approach

I've got a few really great edges from other razors, so I keep thinking it's this razor until I saw how sharp it was this time on the 4k, but after the 8k the edge has disappeared.

I used a 325 DMT to lap everything

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

What method are you using to establish the bevel is fully set?

What magnification are you using?

Post photos of the razor.

 

[*stefan*]

You could measure and calculate the honing angle.
Looks for pitting/ corrosion with a loupe.
Hone another straight in between.

General:
The razor should shave arm/ leg hair after 1000# Naniwa.
Don't be surprised if the Norton 4000# degrades the edge after Naniwa 3000#. Just do sharpness test also after Naniwa 3000# and then compare after Norton 4000#.

 

[CpnStumpy]

You could measure and calculate the honing angle.
Looks for pitting/ corrosion with a loupe.
Hone another straight in between.

General:
The razor should shave arm/ leg hair after 1000# Naniwa.
Don't be surprised if the Norton 4000# degrades the edge after Naniwa 3000#. Just do sharpness test also after Naniwa 3000# and then compare after Norton 4000#.

Thanks, and yeah I did sharpen another in between, worked a charm, great layman and carey.

This Morley vexes me because it has no reason to not take an edge, and it was shaving after the 1000, which is when I took it up to the 3000 then 4000 - one question I am curious should I use both? I was doing just the naniwa 3000 then straight to the Norton 8000 on others, but honestly I'm just guessing approaches with this blade now.

Have you ever experienced a blade degrading when going up from the Norton 4k to the 8k? Or 3k to 8k?

This morning it was tree topping after the 4k, which made me think I finally got it better, but the 8k turned it into a smooth blunt instrument..

 

[*stefan*]

If an edge has corrosion it will crumble at some point. Don't remember at what grit thought and that will probably vary with the corrosion, honing angle and steel.
Look for little holes, like worm holes with a loupe for this. Would not surprise me if this blade got it.

There's a limit for honing angle and what the steel can manage, perhaps 14,5 degrees for a good steel. If to low honing angle I guess the edge could start crumble after 3000# Naniwa( 4000# Norton).

Once honed an RSO(razor shaped object) and it never got sharper than after bevel set at 600#. In fact it just got less sharp above 600-1000#.

"3000 then 4000 - one question I am curious should I use both"?
-I don't think you need to, very similar grit. But just do some sharpness test and compare. Could be the Norton fits better before the Naniwa 3000#.

 

[CpnStumpy]

If an edge has corrosion it will crumble at some point. Don't remember at what grit thought and that will probably vary with the corrosion, honing angle and steel.
Look for little holes, like worm holes with a loupe for this. Would not surprise me if this blade got it.

There's a limit for honing angle and what the steel can manage, perhaps 14,5 degrees for a good steel. If to low honing angle I guess the edge could start crumble after 3000# Naniwa( 4000# Norton).

Once honed an RSO(razor shaped object) and it never got sharper than after bevel set at 600#. In fact it just got less sharp above 600-1000#.

"3000 then 4000 - one question I am curious should I use both"?
-I don't think you need to, very similar grit. But just do some sharpness test and compare. Could be the Norton fits better before the Naniwa 3000#.

Thanks a lot for this feedback!! I will inspect it with the loupe. I kept thinking to myself that any blade can be sharpened, but won't necessarily hold its edge for long. It's good to hear it's possible that it may just be the metal on this one. I'll post a picture in a bit, blade looks rather clean and such but the loupe may tell!

Also thanks for the tip on the 3k, I may try it after the Norton 4k to see with other blades or omit the 4k altogether as I did with two blades that came out great

Regarding angle, perhaps I should put 2-4 layers of electrical tape on it and see if that helps?

 

[*stefan*]

"Regarding angle, perhaps I should put 2-4 layers of electrical tape on it and see if that helps"?

-Yes, why not. For learning you could also calculate current honing angle and look for corrosion before.

 

[HazMat Shaver]

I'd recommend learning how to calculate the angle before going any farther. I
MO 17.5 to 18 total degrees is what is needed for any razor. Some you can't get there because it's too thick spined and/or the width is too little. But knowing this is a big part of learning to hone. Even if you don't adjust with tape for an angle, (Some people wont use tape) you will at least know where you are and what may be happening when you are honing.

 

[Gamma]

Honing via 'formula' doesn't work. Lap counts don't work. There is no paint by numbers here.
Cutting hairs, threads, corks, dollar bills, tree topping, etc - do not qualify the edge. I can shave arm hair with a credit card sharpened on 600x w/d paper. Means nothing. When/if you have some sort of standardized thing going on, maybe you can do some parlor tricks that will shed light on the state of the edge. Right now you are shooting blindfolded in the dark though. Having success previously can mess with you, happens all the time. You think you 'got it' and then something goes sideways on you. Follow a proven path and slowly iron out the possibilities.

Set the bevel, set the bevel, set the bevel, set the bevel.

Learn to set the bevel well enough so you can get a shave off of it. Yes, shave off your 1k.
Then move to 3k and hone until you can improve the shave from the edge off that 1k.
The 4k is superfluous here. No point to using it.
The Norton 8k is equivalent to a Nani 5k. Meh but a decent jump-to from the 3k Nani.
You should be able to get the edge further along than you did on the 3k; I mean a better shaving edge.
Make sure your stones are flat. Check with a known quality straight edge. Make sure the edges are chamfered.
Inspect the bevel, make sure you are hitting across the entire length evenly.

I would not endorse errantly adding multiple layers of tape without having a proven good reason to do so. Introducing more variables can't possibly help. Honing on 2 layers of tape is a PITA when you know what you're doing, when you are not even sure of your bevel angle that isn't a direction I'd consider. I don't remember the last time I needed more than 1 layer of tape and I think I have used 4-5 layers once or twice.

Besides, adding tape isn't really a typical solution for someone losing their edge on a 5k. It might be, sure, anything is possible. But, in general, not so much.

I might suggest posting clear images of the blade, in focus, close up, without flash wash out. Could be some visible issues you are not detecting.

I might venture a guess that your bevel isn't set right, and your 'sharpness tests' are giving you a false positive due to a toothy edge or a burr that is failing off the 8k. Yes, you could have rotten steel, or too low an angle, or some other such thing. But start at square one, eliminate known variables, one at a time, make changes in the progression incrementally - one at a time- and eventually the story will unfold.
Start with proving your bevel is on-point, the bevel IS the edge. So, no bevel = no edge.

 

[Wid]

Honing via 'formula' doesn't work. Lap counts don't work. There is no paint by numbers here.
Cutting hairs, threads, corks, dollar bills, tree topping, etc - do not qualify the edge. I can shave arm hair with a credit card sharpened on 600x w/d paper. Means nothing. When/if you have some sort of standardized thing going on, maybe you can do some parlor tricks that will shed light on the state of the edge. Right now you are shooting blindfolded in the dark though. Having success previously can mess with you, happens all the time. You think you 'got it' and then something goes sideways on you. Follow a proven path and slowly iron out the possibilities.

Set the bevel, set the bevel, set the bevel, set the bevel.

Learn to set the bevel well enough so you can get a shave off of it. Yes, shave off your 1k.
Then move to 3k and hone until you can improve the shave from the edge off that 1k.
The 4k is superfluous here. No point to using it.
The Norton 8k is equivalent to a Nani 5k. Meh but a decent jump-to from the 3k Nani.
You should be able to get the edge further along than you did on the 3k; I mean a better shaving edge.
Make sure your stones are flat. Check with a known quality straight edge. Make sure the edges are chamfered.
Inspect the bevel, make sure you are hitting across the entire length evenly.

I would not endorse errantly adding multiple layers of tape without having a proven good reason to do so. Introducing more variables can't possibly help. Honing on 2 layers of tape is a PITA when you know what you're doing, when you are not even sure of your bevel angle that isn't a direction I'd consider. I don't remember the last time I needed more than 1 layer of tape and I think I have used 4-5 layers once or twice.

Besides, adding tape isn't really a typical solution for someone losing their edge on a 5k. It might be, sure, anything is possible. But, in general, not so much.

I might suggest posting clear images of the blade, in focus, close up, without flash wash out. Could be some visible issues you are not detecting.

I might venture a guess that your bevel isn't set right, and your 'sharpness tests' are giving you a false positive due to a toothy edge or a burr that is failing off the 8k. Yes, you could have rotten steel, or too low an angle, or some other such thing. But start at square one, eliminate known variables, one at a time, make changes in the progression incrementally - one at a time- and eventually the story will unfold.
Start with proving your bevel is on-point, the bevel IS the edge. So, no bevel = no edge.

Yep, bevel, bevel, bevel

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

The bevel is not set, load the photo in a photo editor, enlarge and look at the edge.

Here is a portion of the edge, clearly the bevel set is the issue.

Hair test, like any other test must be calibrated, even a dull razor can shave arm hair.

 

[JPO]

This is I think the 3rd time I started from scratch with this clover Morley and sons.

Bevel set at Naniwa 1000
Back at it on the Naniwa 3000

Now it's shaving hair on my leg

Norton 4000, and now it's tree topping

Norton 8000 and now it's smoothly gliding over the hair without cutting ****

What the heck? I'm doing a combination of the rough and fast approach shown by DrMatt357 followed by Lynn's 20+20 circles + 20 X's, until the 8k where I'm only doing Lynn's approach

I've got a few really great edges from other razors, so I keep thinking it's this razor until I saw how sharp it was this time on the 4k, but after the 8k the edge has disappeared.

I used a 325 DMT to lap everything

"rough and fast approach shown by DrMatt357"
I would try to slow down and focus on refining the bevel on the 1k, and pay attention to how the edge is developing. If you are working on a more flexible grind and applying to much torque or pressure you might not be making full contact on the bevel. The bevel shoulder wil act as a fulcrum lifting the front part of the bevel. This will keep the bevel from closing at the apex. This can be a problem on some razors even with light pressure. The bevel is stiffer at the bevel shoulder then at the tip/apex. This means that you might be removing material at uneven rate from the shoulder to the apex.
This can also give you a false edge that is braking off on the 8k. You should not have much, if any visible swarf on your 8k, and you should not have to spend allot of time on this stone.

 

[HazMat Shaver]

And quit watching Dr Matt!

 

[Steve56]

And quit watching Dr Matt!

ROFL !

 

[CpnStumpy]

And quit watching Dr Matt!

Yeah, I've been uncertain of his technique for sure..

Regardless, I got an edge! It shaved nicely today - I think the angle was the key, this morning I started back at the 1k and worked through 4k-8k-12k and with 4 strips of electrical tape just to bump the angle up.

I'm definitely going to take your advice on torquing as well, I had been thinking it might be part of the issue.

I honestly feel like I got the best results with Lynne Abrams circles and Xes technique followed over all the progression, but the circles are a ***** to keep the blade flat and even during...

 

[CpnStumpy]

Honing via 'formula' doesn't work. Lap counts don't work. There is no paint by numbers here.
Cutting hairs, threads, corks, dollar bills, tree topping, etc - do not qualify the edge. I can shave arm hair with a credit card sharpened on 600x w/d paper. Means nothing. When/if you have some sort of standardized thing going on, maybe you can do some parlor tricks that will shed light on the state of the edge. Right now you are shooting blindfolded in the dark though. Having success previously can mess with you, happens all the time. You think you 'got it' and then something goes sideways on you. Follow a proven path and slowly iron out the possibilities.

Set the bevel, set the bevel, set the bevel, set the bevel.

Learn to set the bevel well enough so you can get a shave off of it. Yes, shave off your 1k.
Then move to 3k and hone until you can improve the shave from the edge off that 1k.
The 4k is superfluous here. No point to using it.
The Norton 8k is equivalent to a Nani 5k. Meh but a decent jump-to from the 3k Nani.
You should be able to get the edge further along than you did on the 3k; I mean a better shaving edge.
Make sure your stones are flat. Check with a known quality straight edge. Make sure the edges are chamfered.
Inspect the bevel, make sure you are hitting across the entire length evenly.

I would not endorse errantly adding multiple layers of tape without having a proven good reason to do so. Introducing more variables can't possibly help. Honing on 2 layers of tape is a PITA when you know what you're doing, when you are not even sure of your bevel angle that isn't a direction I'd consider. I don't remember the last time I needed more than 1 layer of tape and I think I have used 4-5 layers once or twice.

Besides, adding tape isn't really a typical solution for someone losing their edge on a 5k. It might be, sure, anything is possible. But, in general, not so much.

I might suggest posting clear images of the blade, in focus, close up, without flash wash out. Could be some visible issues you are not detecting.

I might venture a guess that your bevel isn't set right, and your 'sharpness tests' are giving you a false positive due to a toothy edge or a burr that is failing off the 8k. Yes, you could have rotten steel, or too low an angle, or some other such thing. But start at square one, eliminate known variables, one at a time, make changes in the progression incrementally - one at a time- and eventually the story will unfold.
Start with proving your bevel is on-point, the bevel IS the edge. So, no bevel = no edge.

Thanks for all the details and the tip about photos of the edge! I completely agree I'm super stabbing in the dark and I don't like it.. I'll be more mindful of isolation of variables in the future as you suggest, and thanks for the analysis of my stones and progression!

Here's a picture btw - wasn't super sure what to try to capture

 

[Matt O]

Thanks for all the details and the tip about photos of the edge! I completely agree I'm super stabbing in the dark and I don't like it.. I'll be more mindful of isolation of variables in the future as you suggest, and thanks for the analysis of my stones and progression!

Here's a picture btw - wasn't super sure what to try to capture

That bevel/edge looks a little unrefined for coming off of an 8k.

I only have two thoughts…DMT 325 is fine for flattening stones quickly, but it might be leaving a pretty scratched up/rough surface for you to hone upon. This could explain why the bevel near the edge looks scratched/rough.

From that picture it looks like you have a burr on the very edge, though it isn’t clear enough to tell. If you were shaving off of 3k, tree topping off of 4k, and then nothing off of 8k…it sounds like user error on the 8k to me, especially if this method has worked well for you in the past.

If you were doing a “rough and fast approach,” I bet that you dumped the edge either making initial contact with the stone, or when you were moving it at a diagonal on one of the lengthwise edges on the stone…and you failed to notice it.

My recommendation would be to make sure the surfaces of your synthetics are flat and nice/smooth…and slow down…no need to go “rough and fast” when honing. Enjoy it!

Vr

Matt

 

[lightfoot]

I would be interested to see what would happen if you colored the bevel with a sharpie and let it dry followed by doing no more than 3 strokes on either the 3K or 8k in order to see if an area isn’t contacting the stone….
One thing to keep in mind when you see other peoples technique as they work, many of them have been doing this for a very long time and they just have an approach down that works for them that won’t necessarily work for someone else. This is the case with Dr. Matt for example. He’s just been using that system for so long that he’s just got it down and it isn’t necessarily realistic to expect you (or anyone else for that matter) to hone as it appears he’s honing (in as much as you can see on camera) and be able to duplicate that yourself.
I mean as far as my own Honing goes I may think a certain aspect is a huge priority while someone else would just call shenanigans on that same point. There are some things I’ve shared on the forum that I regret while other things I continue to keep to myself as far as my personal approach goes. Part of the reason it becomes such a personal thing is the wide variance in types of Steel and the differences in all of our physiology in regards to how we physically handle the Razor.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Take a photo without tape, (4 layers is a lot), so we can see the spine wear, and a close up of the heel. I suspect the heel has been in need of correction for a long time.

Which is why the edge is not straight and has a serous frown. Likely half the bevel is not fully on the stone and the cause of the S shape edge.

It is an old razor that has been abused, it can be fixed, but first some repair work is needed. Some old, beaters can not just be “honed”, first you need to make some repairs, then hone or you will just waste more steel.

Red line is to compare the current edge, blue line is what will need to be removed to make a straight edge.