Dudes Shapton glass 8k or 10k or shapton ceramic stone 12k

[camilorosso]

I am becoming a fan of knife sharpening, and I have a set of cheap Chinese stones that come up to 10,000, it seems to me that those stones to remove damage and leave a half decent edge, are fine, I want to advance a little more and I have seen the shapton glass, but i have seen the shapton pro.

My doubt is whether to buy the shapton glass 8000 or the shapton pro 12000, with the set of stones that I have to buy the sahpton glass 16000, I cannot buy both due to budget issues.

the difference in sharpness from shapton glass 8000 to shapton pro 12000 will be great.

P.S; I only use Japanese knives that are made of a very hard material, that's why I've been leaning towards glass they say it's better for hard blades plus 58 rockwell

 

[David]

Are you looking at honing razors as well or just knives?

 

[RayClem]

The Shapton Glass stones are "interesting". They do not rate their grits the same way that Naniwa and other Japanese synthetics are rated. A SG 30K stone and a Suehiro 20K stone are almost exactly the same micron size. A SG 16K stone is going to be similar to a Naniwa SS 12K.

The SG 16K hone has somewhat of a checkered reputation. Many people say that it not a great stone for razor honing. Before purchasing one, you might want to check out this video by DrMatt357:

As far as the other Shapton Glass stones are concerned, depending upon the quality of your current stones, you might not find they improve your honing capability beyond what you already have.

If you want to stick with synthetic stones, the Naniwa 12K would enhance your capabilities.

Although I have a Naniwa 12K and a Shapton Glass 16K, I seldom use either of them. I prefer finishing razors on natural hones with one exception. I have a synthetic Suehiro Gokumyo 20K which is a superb hone, but it is significantly beyond your budget.

There are some natural stones that are within your budget that you might enjoy. My favorite natural stones are the Greek Vermio, the Imperia La Roccia, and the Black Shadow. I am not sure the Greek Vermio is still available. I find that these three stones finish to a higher level than the Naniwa 12K. I do not have a Pierre La Lune, but I have heard good things about that stone as well. The Black Shadow is less expensive than the PLL.

I have a couple of stones that will finish at a level similar to the Naniwa 12K, but with a less harsh edge. They include the Chinese Guangxi hone (sometimes called a Chinese Natural or the People's Hone of Indeterminate Grit). If you get a good one, the Guangxi hone produces a nice edge. I also had one that was better suited for knives than razors. The Tsushima Ocean Blue (hard 12K) can also produce a nice edge if you do not need something even finer. I got a Thuringian hone (not a Escher) and found that it is a great prefinisher, similar to a Naniwa 10K, but it does not produce an edge sharp enough for my beard.

Another option you might want to consider is getting pasted strops rather than getting additional hones. I can hone a razor on my Thuringian (app. 10K) and then take it to pasted strops to produce a very sharp, smooth edge. It takes a little more work to finish the edge than it would if I honed it on my Black Shadow or Suehiro G20K, but you can end up with the same edge when you are finished.

 

[Herrenberg]

There are charts around that show what Shapton Glass stones are suited to what purposes. The ones designated for razors are the 3K, 10K, and 30K. I imagine that what this means is that these stones have a more uniform grit size than others in the series. My experiences with them have been very good; when I'm doing a full synthetic series, or full synthetic except a couple of natural stones, I often start with Shapton Glass 1K 3K 10K.

The 10K is superb as an intermediate stone in a honing series. But, for carbon steel razors, the 8K HC (High Carbon) series is so good that I can't decide which is better. If you're going Shapton Glass in this range, I definitely recommend that you pick one of these stones, rather than the SG 8000 HR series, if you plan to put razors on these stones.

For identification purposes, the HC stones are grey rather than bright white, and exist only in 4K, 6K, and 8K grits.

For kitchen knifes, most people prefer a max 4K edge, with some tooth, for almost all purposes except sushi, even with the very best knives. Such an edge will stay useful much longer in the kitchen.

 

[JPO]

I am becoming a fan of knife sharpening, and I have a set of cheap Chinese stones that come up to 10,000, it seems to me that those stones to remove damage and leave a half decent edge, are fine, I want to advance a little more and I have seen the shapton glass, but i have seen the shapton pro.

My doubt is whether to buy the shapton glass 8000 or the shapton pro 12000, with the set of stones that I have to buy the sahpton glass 16000, I cannot buy both due to budget issues.

the difference in sharpness from shapton glass 8000 to shapton pro 12000 will be great.

P.S; I only use Japanese knives that are made of a very hard material, that's why I've been leaning towards glass they say it's better for hard blades plus 58 rockwell

Are you planning to use them for knife polishing or with razors?
I would not use any of my shapton stones for knife polishing.
For that purpose natural stones and Naniwa stones does a much better jobb.

 

[Alum of Potash]

I see that this is your first post, so welcome to Badger & Blade!

I've never gone much past 5k in honing knives; but then, I don't have very fancy knives, just some soft carbon steel blades that like to tarnish and rust, and some cheapo stainless steel knives so that others won't play around with "my" knives.

Good luck in your quest. Assuming you're in the States, I've found Chef Knives To Go to be a good retailer of knife-related stuff.

 

[camilorosso]

¿También buscas afilar navajas o solo cuchillos?

Only knifes

 

[camilorosso]

Las piedras de Shapton Glass son "interesantes". No califican sus granos de la misma manera que califican Naniwa y otros sintéticos japoneses. Un yeso SG 30K y un yeso Suehiro 20K tienen casi exactamente el mismo tamaño de micra. Una piedra SG 16K será similar a una Naniwa SS 12K.

El pulidor SG 16K tiene una reputación algo accidentada. Mucha gente dice que no es una gran piedra para afilar con navaja. Antes de comprar uno, es posible que desee ver este video de DrMatt357:

En lo que respecta a las otras piedras de Shapton Glass, dependiendo de la calidad de sus piedras actuales, es posible que no descubra que mejoran su capacidad de afilado más allá de lo que ya tiene.

Si desea seguir con piedras sintéticas, el Naniwa 12K mejoraría sus capacidades.

Aunque tengo una Naniwa 12K y una Shapton Glass 16K, rara vez uso alguna de ellas. Prefiero terminar las maquinillas de afeitar en piedra natural con una excepción. Tengo un Suehiro Gokumyo 20K sintético que es excelente, pero está significativamente más allá de su presupuesto.

Hay algunas piedras naturales que están dentro de tu presupuesto y que podrías disfrutar. Mis piedras naturales favoritas son el Vermio griego, el Imperia La Roccia y el Black Shadow. No estoy seguro de que el griego Vermio todavía esté disponible. Encuentro que estas tres piedras terminan a un nivel más alto que el Naniwa 12K. No tengo un Pierre La Lune, pero también he oído hablar bien de esa piedra. El Black Shadow es menos costoso que el PLL.

Tengo un par de piedras que terminarán en un nivel similar al Naniwa 12K, pero con un borde menos áspero. Incluyen el pulidor chino Guangxi (a veces llamado pulidor natural chino o pulidor popular de grano indeterminado). Si obtiene uno bueno, el afilador de Guangxi produce un buen filo. También tenía uno que era más adecuado para cuchillos que para navajas. El Tsushima Ocean Blue (12K duro) también puede producir una buena ventaja si no necesita algo aún más fino. Obtuve un afilador de Thuringian (no un Escher) y descubrí que es un excelente preacabado, similar a un Naniwa 10K, pero no produce un borde lo suficientemente afilado para mi barba.

Otra opción que quizás desee considerar es obtener correas pegadas en lugar de obtener afilados adicionales. Puedo afilar una navaja en mi Thuringian (aprox. 10K) y luego llevarla a tiras pegadas para producir un borde muy afilado y suave. Se necesita un poco más de trabajo para terminar el borde que si lo puliera en mi Black Shadow o Suehiro G20K, pero puede terminar con el mismo borde cuando haya terminado.

¿Conoces una tienda en los EE. UU. para buscar esas piedras?

thanks for your time

 

[camilorosso]

¿Planeas usarlos para pulir cuchillos o con navajas?
No usaría ninguna de mis piedras shapton para pulir cuchillos.
Para ese propósito, las piedras naturales y las piedras Naniwa hacen un trabajo mucho mejor.

solo cuchillos

 

[Steve56]

If your question is hard knife steel, the answer is Shapton Glass HR. Hard, wear-resistant steels are what the HR series were designed to do.

 

[camilorosso]

Si su pregunta es acero duro para cuchillos, la respuesta es Shapton Glass HR. Los aceros duros y resistentes al desgaste son para lo que se diseñó la serie HR.

thanks for your answer an time

 

[David]

Only knifes

Those are extremely high grit stones for knives. I rarely take any knife past a 2k synthetic stone. When you get things really dialed in you can get great edges off a 500x-1k stone.

 

[Steve56]

If you’re cutting maters, a 500 grit edge is peachy! (Doh!)

 

[Steve56]

A good suita works pretty well too …

 

[Mr Kooby Shemayrew]

I am relatively new to straight razors but I have a couple years experience with knives. If you feel your Chinese stones are “true to grit” and you have up to 10K, you are not going to gain anything by going to another brand or going higher.

Now there is a white Chinese stone on Amazon that is labelled as a 10K. I bought it. It’s about 3K or 4K at best. It’s an ok stone when properly grit rated. You might have a legit 10K Chinese stone which would be fine. I have yet to see one though.

I have a Dan’s hard Arkansas that is my go-to finishing stone for knives. It is around a 6K. My favorite knife finisher. If I go up to a black Ark it gets sharper but it also removes ALL bite from the edge which I don’t like.

If you let us know what kinds of knives you have and what they are used for we can make some better suggestions.

 

[Gamma]

The Shapton 16k GS works fine with razors, unless you don't know how to use it, or you don't know how to do your ground work correctly. Seriously. Someone that can't drive crashes a car, we usually don't say the car didn't drive right. Oh, wait, there's a photo of the crashed car? Well then, that photo proves it was the car's fault. Of course it does...

Anyway, for knives...without knowing your existing stones, recommending stones to follow them is nothing but guesswork.
Cheap Chinese stones labeled 8000x are rarely anything even close to that.

I would not agree that the GS stones are inherently better for higher hardness steel. There is more to the game than just hardness. Both systems will work fine. Maybe some steels will need a bit more effort on one stone or another, sometimes, maybe. That can work to one's advantage actually. But if someone can't sharpen 62 HRC on a Pro stone, then getting a GS isn't going to solve their problems.

The sharpness is in the ground work, the finish can only make what is good better, it will not make 'meh' great. So what is coming off the bargain stones is suspect and not guaranteed to be a candidate for greatness.

I have sets of both, Shap Pro and GS; I use them for razors, tools, cutlery.

Typically, higher end Japanese knives would be finished on Natural stones, not always, but more often than not. I have used the 12k Nani SS and the Shapton 16k for Hocho, Kataha and Ryoba. Up to 68 HRC Blue, Super Blue, etc. They work fine. I've used the 30k stones also, sorta pointless for me really. Edges get killed here so going above 4k is always a questionable event.
No matter what though, the ground work needs to be impeccable to realize advantages of going way high in grit. The Pro stones only goes to 12k then 30k, the 16k GS is not much different than 12k Pro to be honest. Little more fine. In the 8k stones, I do not see an advantage to the GS HR 8k over the Pro 8k. The HC 8k is really not any finer to me but the feedback sorta feels better. GS 6k to GS 10k is a better plan for me usually. That GS 10k is a stellar stone.. I don't finish on synths usually but that is one I will grab to tune things up. The 12k Nani is actually a bit finer with a hint more polish but I like the edges off the 10k better usually.

 

[camilorosso]

Those are extremely high grit stones for knives. I rarely take any knife past a 2k synthetic stone. When you get things really dialed in you can get great edges off a 500x-1k stone.

Thank you for your answer, but I got lost, it is assumed that a higher number is a finer grain, which eats less metal, and therefore the edge is more polished..........

 

[Robert6891]

Thank you for your answer, but I got lost, it is assumed that a higher number is a finer grain, which eats less metal, and therefore the edge is more polished..........

Thats the basic idea. But more polished doesn't always mean better. There are points where going finer offers no further benefit and in some cases can actually become counter productive. What it is, what it's made out of, what it's intended purpose is, all factor in. And technique can be an factor.

An axe is a good example here. An axe will take a surprisingly fine edge. Like, straight razor sharp. And then some. And with that kind of edge it'll effortlessly bite insanely deep into a tree. For about 3 swings. Then it'll be rubbish and need to be filed and honed again. That same axe sharpened on a 600 stone might not split hairs, might not bite into a tree as deep, but will bite deep enough all day long and at the end of the day, only need a touch up on the 600 stone. The guy with the razor sharp axe is going to take all day to do what the other guy does in about an hour because he's constantly sharpening his axe.
More polished, less effective.
With a knife the same issues can apply. I worked in a butcher shop once. One of the old timers showed me how to sharpen the knives. The cleavers, 800 grit. The big butchers and boning knives 1000 grit. The fillet knives, 8000. Yes, to sharpen the butcher knives to 8000 grit would make them cut better, but the hard work they do would make that edge fall off fast and then we'd be sharpening again, several times a day, to keep it performing, which would be over all less productive. At 1000 grit, with a light touch, a very sharp edge could be achieved, and it would hold up all day.


Now this doesn't mean there is no reason to hone your big chef knife to 12k. It just might not be necessary and depending on what you do with it, might actually be working against you.

 

[camilorosso]

Thnaks for your coments an time..........excelent examples

 

[Steve56]

@Robert6891 makes a great point. Unlike razors, knives have a much wider range in terms of ‘stuff’ that they are expected to cut, and so need different edges. I usually go pretty high on the bi-metal Japanese knives.

A tomato and pepper knife is happy with a 500 grit edge. A 12k edge won’t bite into the tough skin very well. A Shapton Glass 500 is a wonderful thing on knives and cuts hard steel well. @David likes this stone a lot, as do I, but get the double thick. Knives and tools wear stones faster and the 500 HR double thick is ’only’ 50% more than the standard thickness. I put ‘only’ in quotes because these are not cheap stones.

A lot of the discussion seems to be synth-centric, but a good JNat suita or a good coticule edge on a knife is just difficult to beat.

I had to chuckle at the ‘cleaver 800 grit’ comment. My normal cleaver is a vintage USA Utica Supercut, that belonged to my parents. A common model in those times. I use it for cutting pizza mostly, but I also use it to condition and surface my JNat razor stones. Which means that it gets razor sharp, lol. So if I want to store it in a drawer, I either have to protect the edge or dull it a bit! It doesn’t dull quickly though, people underestimate how good that vintage USA steel is.