Dual Boiler v. HX

[RondeB]

I would like to get your take on this question. I have read that HX are pretty much the European standard and produce a very nice shot but that there is some variation shot to shot. Dual boilers produce a more consistent shot but produce a shot with less "character."

What do you think?

 

[joel]

Owned high end versions of both. I got rid of the HX's, still have and love my double boiler. The only "character" an HX provides is inconsistency.

 

[darinpix]

I've never used a dual boiler. But I own and love an HX machine. It's pretty easy to figure out how to 'surf' the temperature wave with them, and I get great espresso. Yes, it's not as consistent as a dual boiler or a commercial machine, but I don't mind that. Provided your grind, dosing, tamping and timing are good, the minor variations you get from shot to shot don't make it better or worse - just different.

The joy of espresso making, for me, is that it is equal parts art and craft. There's no real right or wrong, once you have mastered the basics - of which getting the grind right is 90%. Mind you, I'm an ex barista - so maybe it's just a relief to be freed from the constraints of pulling hundreds of completely consistent shots a day. At home, I can take my time, and just enjoy the coffee.

 

[Redzone]

Owned both, my vote Twin Boiler preferably with PID or install your own. The HX was purely a stepping stone IMHO.

 

[VeLoRoK]

I guess the dual boiler is "better" but I learned on a vintage e61 and couldn't say that I'd have upgrade-itis if I were to own one of my own. At least, the upgrade-itis wouldn't be based solely on it being a HX machine. And here's a thought: considering how many factors can effect your shot (humidity, air temperature, age of beans, grind, etc) the temperature fluctuations of a HX aren't always that big of a deal. In fact, I found that with some experimentation you can really master and enjoy temperature surfing. What's more, sometimes an inconsistency can be a blessing, showing something in a new light that might be better than your norm.

 

[darinpix]

I guess the dual boiler is "better" but I learned on a vintage e61 and couldn't say that I'd have upgrade-itis if I were to own one of my own. At least, the upgrade-itis wouldn't be based solely on it being a HX machine. And here's a thought: considering how many factors can effect your shot (humidity, air temperature, age of beans, grind, etc) the temperature fluctuations of a HX aren't always that big of a deal. In fact, I found that with some experimentation you can really master and enjoy temperature surfing. What's more, sometimes an inconsistency can be a blessing, showing something in a new light that might be better than your norm.

Completely agree - particularly with the idea that it can be a blessing in disguise: one of the best coffees I ever made from my machine looked like a horribly over-extracted mess up. Tasted divine. Taught me that every bean is different, and that what's in the cup is more important than how the pour looks.

 

[Redzone]

+1 With coffee and many things in life, what might be a mistake can turn to gold. IMO I did master temp surfing on my HX and was helped along charmingly with a fitted temp gauge from Eric via HB etc. Highly recommended if you want to stay with the HX, we had many a coffee session comparing the result of back to back shots pulled on the Twin PID/Twin boiler vs my trusty HX and had they been completely blind I am not sure which I would have prefered.
Enjoy, its a great journey with no destination.

 

[shakin_jake]

Never owned nor used a double boiler...I assume you're talking about a PID'd espresso machine. My first was a PID'd single boiler. The PID is nice but there is still inconsistency between the shots to a certain degree IMO. I lived with that machine for close to a year. Been using an HX (Vetrano QuickMill) for close to 2.5 years and another HX (Salvatore One Black) for about a year before this current HX. At this point, I really like my current HX machine with absolutely no real desire to upgrade, unless I can find a way to run 240 volts to my Island counter top then I'd go for a commercial Faema E-61 (Legend= Chris Coffee sells them-

https://www.chriscoffee.com/Faema_E61_Legend_1_Group_Semi_Automatic_p/legend-1ee.htm

My gums sweat looking at this machine...sorry, but I digress....If I had stupid money, I'd probably buy one then figure out a way to stuff the wires in the existing raceway

Anyways, for me, I find it a real pleasure to pull shots on my current E-61 HX. I like the process, doing the water dance...Of course so much rides on the porta filter side of the equation so it's not just what happens at the machine

As to your (the OP) original question, statements...I've never been to Europe so I'm not familiar with which machines are used (Euro standard?)...and as to the DB shot having less character, not sure that is the case either. If you're trying to decide which machine to buy, flip a coin=

I came very close to buying the La Spaz Vivaldi some years back. A friend who worked on one and used it for awhile talked me out of it. I listened to him so I never took the chance to play with one. I think one of his objections was the small, peculiar PF size. No doubt, the DB machines are more up to date, their strike temps are more consistent than you can get with an HX machine, so if that precision is important to you, or you think it might be, you probably ought to go that way.

Speaking strictly for myself, I prefer the old school E-61, & the HX way of pulling shots. I'd probably sing a different tune if I was in business selling espresso, unless I'd want to highlight the quirkiness that comes with running an espresso machine that takes more finesse to get it to pull a good shot. Seriously though, I doubt many of the high end espresso retailers use an HX machine anymore...just home barista luddites like shakin_jake



Best,


Jake
Reddick Fla.

 

[takeshi]

I would like to get your take on this question. I have read that HX are pretty much the European standard and produce a very nice shot but that there is some variation shot to shot. Dual boilers produce a more consistent shot but produce a shot with less "character."

What do you think?

Sounds like another oversimplification to me. The heating element setup is just one factor to consider among many. I've had excellent shots from HX's, DB's, SBDU's and even the relatively newer machines with a boiler and a thermoblock for steam. Don't fixate on one aspect of espresso making and overlook everything else: the skill and experience of the operator, the beans, the grind, etc. If you're going to fret over a single item then make it the grinder.

 

[jzuzphreek]

Sounds like another oversimplification to me. The heating element setup is just one factor to consider among many. I've had excellent shots from HX's, DB's, SBDU's and even the relatively newer machines with a boiler and a thermoblock for steam. Don't fixate on one aspect of espresso making and overlook everything else: the skill and experience of the operator, the beans, the grind, etc. If you're going to fret over a single item then make it the grinder.

For sure!

 

[RondeB]

I understand that the grinder is really the key to a good shot as it is really the foundation of the drink. Unfortunately I don't live in an area where I can pop on down to the local espresso supply store and try out a bunch of machines. While the question may be oversimplified on first glance the meat of it is all things being equal for those with experience on both types of machines given the same excellent grinder, which type of machine would you have more enjoyment pulling shots from for you and maybe a few other people?

The consensus so far seems to be, if you want high shot to shot consistency go with a dual boiler, if you want to tinker more with temp surfing, get a HX.

I currently have a Rocky which I love, but may move towards a stepless grinder in the future.

 

[shakin_jake]

I understand that the grinder is really the key to a good shot as it is really the foundation of the drink. Unfortunately I don't live in an area where I can pop on down to the local espresso supply store and try out a bunch of machines.

~~~I doubt many here that make espresso at home live near shops that sell this equipment...a place like Chris Coffee that has a show room with all the models. What most of us do is to try out a machine, run with it for awhile and move on to something else. That said, I see you live in Fla. You're welcome to stop by my place to pull shots with my HX machine, if you feel like driving to north central Fla. (I'm between Ocala and Gainesville)

I was in your shoes approx. 5 years ago. At the time, I thought my dream machine would be a PID'd double boiler, and my plan was to own/use at least one HX machine beforte getting the PID'd double boiler...this was while I was pulling shots with a PID'd single boiler (Gaggia Classic) and also my very first real espresso machine, having had a steam toy 20 years earlier

Anyways, a funny thing happened along the way. After pulling shots with an HX for about a year...a new Salvatore One Black, although an entry level HX machine, it was well made and custom built for all intent and purposes...I knew I wanted another HX machine after the One Black. Kind of blew away my plan. In the back of my mind, the plan was to climb the espresso machine ladder...one rung at a time, ending at the DB with all of the bells and whistles (GS3, Speedster), but as mentioned, a funny thing happened along the way. Turns out I really enjoy pulling shots with an HX machine, and at this point, if I ever buy another machine...I'm pretty sure it will be another HX, but my current machine does everything I ask it to do. If it has a short coming, it's the 1.7 litre boiler but I rarely use it enough to run out of up to temp water. My Vetrano has an E-61 group, insulated water and steam wands, insulated boiler, Sirai P-Stat, stainless steel frame. I want not for better components as what is there is more or less the best (AFAIC). All that's missing is a larger boiler I really don't need

(((BUT))), someone else's idea about which machine to use (and live happily ever after) may easily be different from mine

While the question may be oversimplified on first glance the meat of it is all things being equal for those with experience on both types of machines given the same excellent grinder, which type of machine would you have more enjoyment pulling shots from for you and maybe a few other people?

~~~~you're never going to know until you own and use both. It's no big deal to buy and sell espresso machines. I've already stated my preference. To be able to push buttons on an LED display and have the exact water temp at the group, doesn't interest me....BTDT with the PID'd single boiler. IMO, having the exact water temp via electronics removes control I enjoy using. I like to have to think about what I'm doing while employing the water dance. Some don't so they go with a PID'd DB machine

The consensus so far seems to be, if you want high shot to shot consistency go with a dual boiler, if you want to tinker more with temp surfing, get a HX.

~~~I found differences between shots with my PID'd single boiler. Don't discount HX machines when it comes to getting the same strike temp shot to shot right off the bat. You have to realize, a lot of consistency comes down to the barista, not the machine. If I felt a DB machine would offer me better shot quality, I'd go for one but at the risk of patting myself on the back, Jake can pull consistent shots (shot after shot) using his old school hardware

I currently have a Rocky which I love, but may move towards a stepless grinder in the future.

~~~~If you can make it over to my place, bring your current espresso machine and Rocky grinder...pull a few shots w/your rig then use my Mazzer Super Jolly to grind your beans (roasted greens) while pulling shots with your espresso machine so you can compare the two grinders...I think you'll be pleasantly surprised with the difference a commercial espresso grinder can make for your current espresso machine



Best,


Jake
Reddick Fla.

 

[jzuzphreek]

I think a lot of people just make the assumption that Dual Boiler machines are automatically BETTER than HX machines. Although I've not had the opportunity to use either, I've spent the last year doing research on which machine I'll eventually buy. I would caution anyone against making a very black and white, blanket statement like that. There are Pros AND Cons to each, but I think you would find very few KNOWLEDGEABLE professionals/pro-ams willing to make that blanket statement. HX machines are HIGHLY capable machines. The "temp surfing" is not at all like the "temp dance" needed for an SBDU machine like the Silvia. The most practical thing to do is LOTS of research. When you go to cafes with (not superauto) good equipment, ask questions. Form relationships with baristas if you can. Ask for demonstrations and opinions. Baristas who REALLY care about coffee are usually more than willing to talk with patrons who wish to be informed (just not during a rush). Check out the HB, CG, and CS forums. You'll find the line is blurring between the classes of machines. The determinants are less about the boiler setup rather manufacture quality, power ratings, group temperature stability, etc...

 

[Sergio70]

I think a lot of people just make the assumption that Dual Boiler machines are automatically BETTER than HX machines. Although I've not had the opportunity to use either, I've spent the last year doing research on which machine I'll eventually buy. I would caution anyone against making a very black and white, blanket statement like that. There are Pros AND Cons to each, but I think you would find very few KNOWLEDGEABLE professionals/pro-ams willing to make that blanket statement. HX machines are HIGHLY capable machines. The "temp surfing" is not at all like the "temp dance" needed for an SBDU machine like the Silvia. The most practical thing to do is LOTS of research. When you go to cafes with (not superauto) good equipment, ask questions. Form relationships with baristas if you can. Ask for demonstrations and opinions. Baristas who REALLY care about coffee are usually more than willing to talk with patrons who wish to be informed (just not during a rush). Check out the HB, CG, and CS forums. You'll find the line is blurring between the classes of machines. The determinants are less about the boiler setup rather manufacture quality, power ratings, group temperature stability, etc...

The very best advice i´ve heard on this subjet.

By the way i have a HX La Pavoni PUB II and for me thats all i need from a espresso maker.

 

[takeshi]

Unfortunately I don't live in an area where I can pop on down to the local espresso supply store and try out a bunch of machines.

I don't have one either. However, there are many espresso fanatics in my area that are happy to share their passion. Don't overlook such resources. Hit a coffee forum site and see if there's anyone in your area (your profile only states "FL"). Find the good coffee shops in your area and talk to their baristas. I've found espresso enthusiasts to be more than willing to share information.

While the question may be oversimplified on first glance the meat of it is all things being equal for those with experience on both types of machines given the same excellent grinder, which type of machine would you have more enjoyment pulling shots from for you and maybe a few other people?

The heating element arrangement isn't as important as many make it out to be. All else isn't equal and that's the inherent problem with your question. You need to consider all the other aspects of the machines and grinders you're looking at. This would be like shopping for a car and only looking at the amount of HP that the engine is spec'ed for. Polling others on what they prefer also won't help you with determining what you prefer. There are definitely HX users that love their machines. Both HX's and DB's work well for pulling shots for multiple people.

Something to consider is that reading how to do something quite often makes it sound much more difficult than it really is. A cooling flush on an HX isn't that big of a deal. Again, see if you get some first hand experience with a local person's HX.

I currently have a Rocky which I love, but may move towards a stepless grinder in the future.

You will definitely want to upgrade from the Rocky. It's not even really sufficient for making espresso with the Silvia -- much less a better machine. There was a significant improvement in the cup for me moving to a Super Jolly from a Rocky.

 

[RondeB]

Great advice from you guys. Jake, I appreciate the offer and may take you up on it. I'm actually about 15 minutes from you. I actually get my beans from Great American in Ocala.

 

[shakin_jake]

when you mentioned Great American in Ocala, I had no idea what you were talking about, so I googled them. I see that they are a local roaster (800 block of Magnolia) since 2011. I've been roasting my own coffee (raw coffee green beans) since April 08' so never had the need to seek out a local roaster.

http://shakinjake.blogspot.com/2010/03/sight-i-like-to-see-new-bag-of-green.html

the above link takes you to one of my BlogSpot pages where I discus roasting green coffee beans using a Hot Top Model B coffee roaster. I'm still using this roaster. Great little piece of technology

Here's my first plug and play coffee roaster-

a behmor 1600 ...kinda looks like a toaster oven. I logged a hundred roasts on this Behmor before selling it and moving to the Hot Top

door's open on this shot. yes, that is a drum, making this a drum roaster which helps to bring out bass notes in coffee vs. air poppers that accentuate bright notes

the radiant tubes in the rear put out the heat

this is the chaff collector & fits in front of the drum

here's my first coffee roaster, a corn popper. Lid off, empty sockeye salmon can inverted for the chimney

and this is how I cooled the roasted coffee from the corn popper=

As mentioned previously, my door is open for you to come by and pull shots with my HX. Almost any day in the afternoons are best for me, 1-3PM. Mornings and evenings are out...too busy w/my clan= All I need is 24 hours advance notice, to make sure I'll be here. Send me a PM when you think you have time to come over and we'll go from there


Best,


Jake
Reddick Fla.

 

[jzuzphreek]

Really good post from HB regarding some differences between HX and DB machines, as well as the levels of consumer/prosumer/professional. I hope it's ok to include this link to another forum... if not, I apologize.