Does the bevel move back?

[kohalajohn]

I always hear that you only need to set the bevel once, and that's it.

But eventually, the honing will remove enough steel from the edge that the edge will move back. The blade will become smaller. What happens to the bevel?

I'm thinking about this because I have a chip in my edge. Instead of taking my atoma 1200 and grinding out the chip, I'm trying a suggestion, which is to just keep regular honing and watch the chip slowly disappear.

So does that mean that the bevel remains the same size? That honing just pushes the entire bevel further up in the razor?

The chip is just slightly in from the toe. You can see it without magnification.

It shaves fine, by the way. I wouldn't even know about it if I hadn't inspected it with my loupe.

 

[JohnEzra]

Yes, honing just pushes the bevel further up the razor, touch ups on a finishing stone just to this an incredibly small amount.

I am shocked you don't notice that chip while shaving; maybe I just have sensitive skin, but even something a fraction of that size would be absolutely noticeable for me. Also, a chip that size will take ages to be removed just by touching up the razor, but if it doesn't bother you, go for it.

 

[RumpleBearskin]

May be my OCD taking, but that chip would bug the heck out of me. If worry what it would do to my face and my strop.

 

[kohalajohn]

Ignorance is bliss. I had a great shave with it and then was very surprised when the loupe revealed the truth.

No idea where the chip came from. It's been ages since I did a real honing and used a loupe. For a long time it's just been pasted balsa, and I don't use a loupe when I'm just maintaining on balsa.

I guess the lesson is check with a loupe from time to time, even if just maintaining with pastes.

 

[SliceOfLife]

A lot of techniques don't really use the toe. Toe and heel chips often seem to go unnoticed.

 

[Slash McCoy]

I have many times found chips that didn't impact my shave at all. They impact my eyes when I see them, though. Irresistible urge to hone them out.

 

[bluesman 7]

The chip could well have occurred while stropping directly before your shave. A foreign particle on the strop could easily be the cause. Checking with a loop is fine, but unless you're constantly checking the likelihood of catching a chip between its origin and a shave is pretty small IMO. That leaves waiting until you either feel it, mark your strop, experience the edge as dull, or notice the chip when cleaning and drying your razor.

 

[kohalajohn]

Curious about something.

Could we accidentally create a chip by dropping the edge while honing?

Occasionally, when I am honing I'll hear that clatter that tells me I have not placed the spine down fully before lowering the edge to the stone. That clatter tells me the edge has touched the stone first. It's a startling and annoying thing, and tells me I need to concentrate, slow down, get that spine down and be gentle with starting the edge on its new lap along the stone.

Could a mistake like that cause a chip?

Anyway, I've decided I'm going to grind it out. Although it shaves fine, I can see it harming the strop.

Oh, actually the truth is I just like honing.

 

[bluesman 7]

Could we accidentally create a chip by dropping the edge while honing?

Absolutely

 

[Slash McCoy]

Curious about something.

Could we accidentally create a chip by dropping the edge while honing?

Occasionally, when I am honing I'll hear that clatter that tells me I have not placed the spine down fully before lowering the edge to the stone. That clatter tells me the edge has touched the stone first. It's a startling and annoying thing, and tells me I need to concentrate, slow down, get that spine down and be gentle with starting the edge on its new lap along the stone.

Could a mistake like that cause a chip?

Anyway, I've decided I'm going to grind it out. Although it shaves fine, I can see it harming the strop.

Oh, actually the truth is I just like honing.

You betcha. Landing the edge before the spine will certainly do some damage. Possibly so little damage that the next few laps clears it up. Possibly not so little as that. Slapping a stone with your edge is a very good way to chip the edge, even if the spine is fully settled on the stone. I am always careful, when honing on stones, to not slap the bevel down when turning at the end of the stroke. On film over acrylic it probably isn't as big a deal unless it is a very hard or brittle blade. Slapping the razor is an easy habit to fall into if you are in a hurry.

 

[kohalajohn]

You betcha. Landing the edge before the spine will certainly do some damage. Possibly so little damage that the next few laps clears it up. Possibly not so little as that. Slapping a stone with your edge is a very good way to chip the edge, even if the spine is fully settled on the stone. I am always careful, when honing on stones, to not slap the bevel down when turning at the end of the stroke. On film over acrylic it probably isn't as big a deal unless it is a very hard or brittle blade. Slapping the razor is an easy habit to fall into if you are in a hurry.

Yup. Slapping the razor happens when I hurry. That clatter on stone sound gives exactly the same bad feeling in the gut as when you grind gears in the stick shift in your car.

Another reason to like balsa.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Yup. Slapping the razor happens when I hurry. That clatter on stone sound gives exactly the same bad feeling in the gut as when you grind gears in the stick shift in your car.

Another reason to like balsa.

Mmmmm yeah... love that soft touchdown.

 

[Basil]

I always hear that you only need to set the bevel once, and that's it.

But eventually, the honing will remove enough steel from the edge that the edge will move back. The blade will become smaller. What happens to the bevel?

I'm thinking about this because I have a chip in my edge. Instead of taking my atoma 1200 and grinding out the chip, I'm trying a suggestion, which is to just keep regular honing and watch the chip slowly disappear.

So does that mean that the bevel remains the same size? That honing just pushes the entire bevel further up in the razor?

The chip is just slightly in from the toe. You can see it without magnification.

It shaves fine, by the way. I wouldn't even know about it if I hadn't inspected it with my loupe.




View attachment 1208596

Had a chip like that happen to me. Took like 7 years for it to eventually hone out from just touch ups. It’s probably still there but I don’t even notice it.

 

[kohalajohn]

7 years. wow. shows you have very fine, our maintenance is. that's why razors last for two generations.

My initial reluctance to grind out the chip is that doing so takes years off my razor's life.

 

[Srdjan]

Pro tip: Put a layer of tape on the razor and hone the chip out. Then remove the tape and hone, if you don’t like the liability of always having to tape the spine. It doesn’t take long to go from tape to no tape, especially if you let the tape wear down, as you’re approaching the end of chip removal.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Pro tip: Put a layer of tape on the razor and hone the chip out. Then remove the tape and hone, if you don’t like the liability of always having to tape the spine. It doesn’t take long to go from tape to no tape, especially if you let the tape wear down, as you’re approaching the end of chip removal.

Why?

Better to hone with tape if you insist on honing with tape, or hone without tape, and not go back and forth. There is no need to tape just because there is a chip in the edge. Just hone normally. Don't fixate on the chip. There is no need. Simply hone on your coarse stone until the chip is mostly gone, then let your normal bevel setter take it the rest of the way down, run your normal progression, and bobs yer uncle. Doesn't make sense to zero in on a chip and then spend a lot of time fixing what you did in making the chip disappear. Just hone it.

 

[bluesman 7]

I always measure the bevel angle first, and then make any tape decisions.

 

[kohalajohn]

.Simply hone on your coarse stone until the chip is mostly gone, then let your normal bevel setter take it the rest of the way down, run your normal progression, and bobs yer uncle.

Curious about what you mean by coarse stone before a bevel setter. I use an atoma 1200 for bevels, and I planned to just use this to remove the chip. The progression after that is a 4k/8k norton and then a nani 12k. Finishing is either ark or balsa.

Would you start with something even coarser than 1200? I also have an atoma 400.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Curious about what you mean by coarse stone before a bevel setter. I use an atoma 1200 for bevels, and I planned to just use this to remove the chip. The progression after that is a 4k/8k norton and then a nani 12k. Finishing is either ark or balsa.

Would you start with something even coarser than 1200? I also have an atoma 400.

Well, coarse diamond plates cut crazy fast but they can also leave really wild scratch patterns. By coarse stone I usually mean a 320 or 600 grit Chosera or Kuromaku or similar. A 400 grit atoma I would hesitate to use on a razor that only has a small chip to repair but that's a judgement call. The 1200 would be a lot less trauma. YMMV. But if it is a well used one, then it already has any proud diamond particles knocked off so not too bad. TBH I have never to my recollection used an Atoma diamond plate, only DMT or cheapies. I just know my Chosera or Shap 320 or 600 will gitter done.

 

[kohalajohn]

I just finished fixing the chip.

Turns out a cheap 3k synth worked great as a fixer. No need for the aggressive diamond plates. The 3k had some circles and some x strokes and the chip was gone.

After that I progressed with a 8k synth then a soft ark then a black ark. Finishing was on balsa, .5, .25 and .1 and then shaved nicely.

Photos attached. Thanks for the advice.