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Does Drying your Brush a specific way matter?

This post #66. Myth #7 proposes an opinion, that one does not need a stand to dry a brush properly. The OP states: “… according to my own observation and not based on any scientific method, my personal opinion” . That’s cool, we all have opinions and he later states “I encourage the membership to conduct their own experiments to refute existing data. Without said refutation, what's available stands on its own, and those disagreeing with the validity of the data is just so much sour grapes.”

Good idea. I have little faith in opinions as we all have them. Lets see some facts. so lets test this, but not to refute opinion because opinion is subjective. I’m not even sure why this matters. The brush is going to get wet again anyway so what is the point of ensuring its dry before using it again? But, lets assume the premise is correct, that is, to ensure long brush life, one wants the brush to dry quickly. The basis of this might be not to get water into the knot as it might affect glue longevity. If you don’t care about brush life, none of this is of interest. If you do care, then lets look further.

To be perfectly clear, one set of data points is absolutely meaningless. We would need a large set of data and within each experiment, lots of data points across drying time. And then we don’t know if different brush brands and sizes matter. But I got what I got, a single, cheap best badger Edwin Jagger that’s sold a dime a dozen on Amazon.

The brush weighs 48g dry. Post #69 is correct. Edwin Jagger printing is such that its read upright with the brush inverted. Does that have meaning? Is the company sending its consumers a message?

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Soaked and full wet the brush weighed 72g. It was then used, washed clean, and shaken dry to 54g. At that point I weighed the brush periodically throughout the day, albeit at different times but that doesn't really matter due to how the brush dries. I did this both inverted in its stand and the next day stored upright. Conditions were identical, stored in the bathroom, in the open, either in the stand or next to the stand upright.

I suspect there are a huge amount of variables affected experimentation, the most obvious being ambient humidity. During the day it will be higher than at nighttime when the ambient temperature drops and humidity drops. I have observed that in the early Fall, the brush NEVER dried in 24 hours but as the temperature has dropped, it does dry in 24 hours. Since I observe the house humidity, I know for a fact its lower than several months ago. I also suspect that Heisenberg might even have an effect as the mere act of moving the brush onto the scale might dislodge water. But it is what I got and its better than nothing. The results follow and are normalized on the timeline (i.e., I set the graph times to be identical even though they were different days and times in the morning)

It would seem that if one is interested in water soaking into the knot, then the area under the curve is what matters (much like a torque curve for a car engine).
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The results are interesting. The standing brush stood for hours longer with 2gs of water than hanging. Considering the scales here, I do not believe that insignificant. Something is going on there. Was the water sitting in that knot and not evaporating? Yet, after that long initial drying period, the standing brush moved down to the second level quicker and the last level to dry at least two hours quicker. To be clear, the hanging brush dried sometime after midnight so that’s a guess.

What can I conclude other than I wish there were more data points over the 24 hours? In terms of area under the curves, I’ll guess it’s a wash, that is, they are equal. Although just from the graphs, the area under the curve for the standing brush looks larger, I don’t know the exact time the hanging brush dried so its fair enough to say equal. The only thing of significance I can see is the heavier concentration of water sitting longer on the knot by standing on end. Does this mean anything? I have no idea. But I also find it interesting that the standing brush, overall, dried quicker.

I consider this one simple test inconclusive but the fact it took a lot longer to dry some water out of the knot while standing significant. I'm not sure that actually means anything as in a heavier amount of water pushing down into the knot.

I’ll get a different brush and run the same test in the future.
 
Hmm, interesting data.

It would be interesting to see how towel drying affects total dry time. Since the upright brush had the 2g of water for longer but dried faster after that would it change things if they were both brushed on a towel first?
 

Rudy Vey

Shaving baby skin and turkey necks
So one can conclude it really doesn't matter which way the brush is stored to dry!! Your data supports what is said for years!
 

Ad Astra

The Instigator
I wish someone would do this with religion. :001_huh:


It IS problematic to weigh HIM, however.


OP is to be saluted for this effort. Most of you non-engineer types, given a slide rule, would attempt to scrape stubble off of your face with it!


AA
 
Very interesting. I'd like to see figures at 1 hr. intervals over a 48hr. timespan or until the brush(s)
are completely dry. Also it would be important to see same data for boar vs. badger vs. synthetic vs. horse.
Of course subgroups would also be welcome in badger examples pure, best, finest, high mtn white, Manchurian.
Seasonal variations may also be interesting so lets say monthly for a year longer, if an El Nino is present.
Carry on.
 
So one can conclude it really doesn't matter which way the brush is stored to dry!! Your data supports what is said for years!

Not entirely true. For this single test, if the weight bearing down on the knot is heavier for longer, will it effect the glue over decades?

Very interesting. I'd like to see figures at 1 hr. intervals over a 48hr. timespan or until the brush(s)
are completely dry. Also it would be important to see same data for boar vs. badger vs. synthetic vs. horse.
Of course subgroups would also be welcome in badger examples pure, best, finest, high mtn white, Manchurian.
Seasonal variations may also be interesting so lets say monthly for a year longer, if an El Nino is present.
Carry on.

So would I. I'd like to see finer graduations of all the data. But for now, I got what I got. 48 hours for this small brush is too long. At this time of year, it air dries completely in 20 hours. House humidity levels matter. In the winter air and the longer the heat runs drying out the air, to a certain degree the wet brush is actually acting as a humidifier in tiny amounts.

A scientist never publishes data with n=1....
;)

Correct. That is why I said: "To be perfectly clear, one set of data points is absolutely meaningless." but I have greater faith in one test than someone saying "my personal opinion". I know lots of people believe what they want to believe or "it's on the Internet so it must be true". :rolleyes5 In a couple of weeks, I'll try this again using a heavier brush and see what happens.

Ultimately, if you don't care about longevity of the tool, then none of this matters. I would think its more for anyone who buys an expensive product while young, and decides to keep their tool for life, versus those who buy cheaper tools and keeps replacing them periodically, and in the long run pays more money.
 
This post #66. Myth #7 proposes an opinion, that one does not need a stand to dry a brush properly. The OP states: “… according to my own observation and not based on any scientific method, my personal opinion” . That’s cool, we all have opinions and he later states “I encourage the membership to conduct their own experiments to refute existing data. Without said refutation, what's available stands on its own, and those disagreeing with the validity of the data is just so much sour grapes.”

Good idea. I have little faith in opinions as we all have them. Lets see some facts. so lets test this, but not to refute opinion because opinion is subjective. I’m not even sure why this matters. The brush is going to get wet again anyway so what is the point of ensuring its dry before using it again? But, lets assume the premise is correct, that is, to ensure long brush life, one wants the brush to dry quickly. The basis of this might be not to get water into the knot as it might affect glue longevity. If you don’t care about brush life, none of this is of interest. If you do care, then lets look further.

To be perfectly clear, one set of data points is absolutely meaningless. We would need a large set of data and within each experiment, lots of data points across drying time. And then we don’t know if different brush brands and sizes matter. But I got what I got, a single, cheap best badger Edwin Jagger that’s sold a dime a dozen on Amazon.

The brush weighs 48g dry. Post #69 is correct. Edwin Jagger printing is such that its read upright with the brush inverted. Does that have meaning? Is the company sending its consumers a message?

proxy.php


Soaked and full wet the brush weighed 72g. It was then used, washed clean, and shaken dry to 54g. At that point I weighed the brush periodically throughout the day, albeit at different times but that doesn't really matter due to how the brush dries. I did this both inverted in its stand and the next day stored upright. Conditions were identical, stored in the bathroom, in the open, either in the stand or next to the stand upright.

I suspect there are a huge amount of variables affected experimentation, the most obvious being ambient humidity. During the day it will be higher than at nighttime when the ambient temperature drops and humidity drops. I have observed that in the early Fall, the brush NEVER dried in 24 hours but as the temperature has dropped, it does dry in 24 hours. Since I observe the house humidity, I know for a fact its lower than several months ago. I also suspect that Heisenberg might even have an effect as the mere act of moving the brush onto the scale might dislodge water. But it is what I got and its better than nothing. The results follow and are normalized on the timeline (i.e., I set the graph times to be identical even though they were different days and times in the morning)

It would seem that if one is interested in water soaking into the knot, then the area under the curve is what matters (much like a torque curve for a car engine).
proxy.php


The results are interesting. The standing brush stood for hours longer with 2gs of water than hanging. Considering the scales here, I do not believe that insignificant. Something is going on there. Was the water sitting in that knot and not evaporating? Yet, after that long initial drying period, the standing brush moved down to the second level quicker and the last level to dry at least two hours quicker. To be clear, the hanging brush dried sometime after midnight so that’s a guess.

What can I conclude other than I wish there were more data points over the 24 hours? In terms of area under the curves, I’ll guess it’s a wash, that is, they are equal. Although just from the graphs, the area under the curve for the standing brush looks larger, I don’t know the exact time the hanging brush dried so its fair enough to say equal. The only thing of significance I can see is the heavier concentration of water sitting longer on the knot by standing on end. Does this mean anything? I have no idea. But I also find it interesting that the standing brush, overall, dried quicker.

I consider this one simple test inconclusive but the fact it took a lot longer to dry some water out of the knot while standing significant. I'm not sure that actually means anything as in a heavier amount of water pushing down into the knot.

I’ll get a different brush and run the same test in the future.

Thanks for the data. Now I am still confused BUT AT A HIGHER LEVEL! :lol:
 
@grim Thanks for posting. In case you missed earlier discussion, you are not the first to try this: compare http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/295302-Shaving-analytics?p=4233047#post4233047 and http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/52285-Drying-question?p=671150#post671150

The first link contains data from my own tests. I concluded that a stand made no significant difference — but of course "significant" can be a subjective term and YMMV.

Oh, very cool. The second thread was referenced in the "myth" thread. Yours was not. Very nice.

What I find at issue here is blind faith without testing. The original post says: “You believe the people who sell brush stands that tell you one is necessary." I have no doubt whatsoever that sellers of products want you to buy their products. A little research shows that indeed, companies that want to sell you something might try to tell you that you need it and here are some quotes from sellers of stands, although they might be altruistic or not, re: brush care:


  • Source Place "hairs down" in a stand so water can move away from the base of the hairs.
  • Source hang upside down in a stand to dry
  • Source hang it to dry in a shaving brush stand.
  • Source Hang the brush on a stand so the water drips down away from the base of the hairs.
  • Source a brush with the bristles facing down in a holder will provide you with the longest brush life,
  • Source don't leave your shaving brush sitting on its base. It needs to be stored on a proper shaving brush stand to allow any remaining water move away from the bristles and evaporate.
And I could probably find many, many more. But deeper than that, "informational" websites say:


  • Source We recommend rinsing your brush thoroughly after every use and hanging it upside down to dry
  • Source Place the shaving brush in its holder with the bristles facing down.
  • Source hang it up with the bristles facing down.
  • Source leave it upside down, hanging on a brush stand in order to drain out the remaining water.
etc. I know this is overkill. Some informational and a handful of resellers say there is no clear evidence one way or the other.

But then we have the makers of these products, the major manufacturers that say:


  • Source hung up headfirst so that the rest of the water can drain off well. We have developed a shaving brush holder extra for this purpose.
  • Source hang hair down to dry
  • Source hang it up with the bristles pointing down, ideally in a suitable holder.
  • Source turn upside down on the stand to prevent water settling in the base.

This is coming from some big boys like Kent and Shavemac. Of course there are others that say nothing.

What I have found in virtual worlds of common interest, is that sometimes fans of a product don't believe the makers of the products. They come up with their views which are unprovable due to the length of how long it would take to truly test a hypothesis. A good example is the break-in procedure for new cars. Some new cars makers actually still have break-in procedures. Some people ignore them thinking they know better than the people who make the cars. Others follow them religiously. The length of time it would take to test the hypothesis that if you don't follow the break-in procedure would be detrimental to the car is to long for anybody to actually test it. The same is true here. So if your brush lasts 14 years 3 months or 13 year, 10 months, nobody is going to have the patience to find out.

However, I am sensing here that if, for example, you own a Kent brush and don't believe their brush care instructions, then why would you believe any one else? Does that make sense? Of course, you could say, well Kent wants you to buy a stand too. Meh, they are not even close in comparison to price.

And in the end, I'm not sure any of this matters. Who really cares? Its just a tool. Go buy another. Buy 5 more. This is just an interesting experiment because in the end, brushes are cheap enough tools to toss and buy another. OTH, cars are not. :huh:

I'll do more testing a few weeks and thank you for your link. Very detailed and very cool :001_smile
 
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