Doctor Who - Warning, Spoilers!

[mikelz777]

I find the show unwatchable, it's just not dr.who anymore for me. the show had a great run but I'm done. by all and cheers

Once the shows are over I'm asking myself, "Why am I still watching this show?" about 8 out of 10 times. I'm not where you are yet but I'm getting there.

When I say that the finale was one of the best shows of this season and last I'm really not saying a whole lot. I think two main elements saved the finale for me. The first is the Master. Yes he's a bit over the top but at least he's fun and interesting to watch which is more than I can say about any of the other series regulars. He's the best thing that has happened in these last two seasons. The second was the plot line of the Master creating the Cyberman army out of the bodies of the Gallifreyans and the bit of energy in the chest of the 3/4 Cyberman once released, would kill all organic matter then turning that around to defeat the evil plan. That is the kind of stuff this version of the show needs to see more of.

 

[TexLaw]

This also means that the Doctor isn't Gallifreyan but that the true Gallifreyan's have some of her DNA. How has this been missed for the last few thousand years?

That was made quite clear, i.e., that it was covered up. This may be the deepest, darkest secret of the Time Lords. I thought this was an interesting, creative take on the history of the Time Lords that also fit right in with that history as we know it. Long-time fans, of which I am one, know full well that the "Time Lords" (as a community--at least, the leadership) have rarely been portrayed well. Rather, they typically are seen as pompous borderline megalomaniacs. They look down their noses at the rest of the universe with true disdain and often make decisions based on their pride. By the same token, The Doctor always has been a misfit with Time Lord society, and that's why he got the heck out of there.

The Doctor only has 12 regenerations? Don't be silly! The Doctor is now timeless!

The "twelve regenerations" thing has been over for The Doctor for some time, now, at least by my count. That had to go, or the show was over.

As far as your continuing rant about virtue signaling, I might remind you that any choice would be that. Choosing a white male would be virtue signaling, just as it has been for at least the 50-something years that Doctor Who has been around. Perhaps this is something along those lines or even just squaring the account, but this particular long term fan found no outrage. I noticed quite a few races cycle through that one scene, not the least of which was a white maie. Instead of outrage, I found a fascinating, socially relevant storyline that is just beginning, just as I often did in the Doctor Who of old.

I've done my best to keep mum through your ranting, @mikelz777, but enough is enough. You sound like the embodiment of the wise maxim: "when you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression."

Welcome to the world. There's a lot of it out there. Or there are reruns.

And that's all I have to say on that matter.

 

[Haggises]

For anyone who suggests it's a rewrite of canon...
"However, the then-producer of 'Doctor Who', Philip Hinchcliffe certainly intended the faces to be those of the Doctor himself. "It is true to say that I attempted to imply that William Hartnell was not the first Doctor," Hinchcliffe told Lance Parkin, author of 1996 reference book 'Doctor Who: A History of the Universe'. "

(also, look up the Cartmel Masterplan)

 

[TexLaw]

For anyone who suggests it's a rewrite of canon...
"However, the then-producer of 'Doctor Who', Philip Hinchcliffe certainly intended the faces to be those of the Doctor himself. "It is true to say that I attempted to imply that William Hartnell was not the first Doctor," Hinchcliffe told Lance Parkin, author of 1996 reference book 'Doctor Who: A History of the Universe'. "

(also, look up the Cartmel Masterplan)

View attachment 1069474

Even without that (mighty cool) angle on it, I don't see this as a canon rewrite. It's an addition, an expansion. We discovered something. I'd be pretty peeved if the only explanation were just" oh, well, I guess they were wrong about that twelve regeneration thing!" This is a rather clever piece of writing, though.

 

[imatabor]

For anyone who suggests it's a rewrite of canon...

But it is a rewrite of canon. This is totally new information about the Doctor that is contrary to what was known before.

 

[imatabor]

That was made quite clear, i.e., that it was covered up.

I know the Time Lords could cover up this but over the course of the series he/she has been scanned and examined by himself and others. This would mean that everyone in in on the cover up.....even the Doctor (I mean how wouldn't the Doctor know he was genetically different than the other Gallifreyans?)

 

[TexLaw]

First of, the only time the words "Doctor Who canon" every should be written or spoken is if they are preceeded by the words "there is no" or followed by "doesn't exist." The only thing Doctor Who that has gone on longer than the debate about what is canon or whether exists at all (or should) is the series, itself.

Second, I don't mind this sort of thing when it's well done. Chibnall came through on this with a interesting development that makes sense in the larger picture of what we've seen with the Time Lords, The Doctor, and their relationship with the universe and each other. Certainly, there are blanks and trivia to fill in around all this, but that also needs to be done in the course of telling the story. This isn't like

Thirdly, always remember that we only know what we've seen, and there's so much more to be seen.

 

[mikelz777]

As far as your continuing rant about virtue signaling, I might remind you that any choice would be that. Choosing a white male would be virtue signaling, just as it has been for at least the 50-something years that Doctor Who has been around. Perhaps this is something along those lines or even just squaring the account, but this particular long term fan found no outrage. I noticed quite a few races cycle through that one scene, not the least of which was a white maie. Instead of outrage, I found a fascinating, socially relevant storyline that is just beginning, just as I often did in the Doctor Who of old.

I've done my best to keep mum through your ranting, @mikelz777, but enough is enough. You sound like the embodiment of the wise maxim: "when you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression."

The frequency and continuity of my mentions of virtue signaling is reflective of the frequency and continuity of said virtue signaling appearing in the episodes so I'm as annoyed and frustrated with their appearance as you are with my rants. I suppose you can make the argument that any choice would be virtue signaling but that would be a different thing. What I'm talking about is how deliberate they are in making the tail wag the dog. I signed up for good stories and entertainment but instead I'm constantly being confronted with the non-subtle way the writers think I should feel about race, sexuality, gender norms, feminism, the environment, capitalism, white males, etc., etc. Enough already! I wasn't outraged at the many races depicted in the scene showing the multiple regenerations. The point I was making was that it was like a check list where they would score more points based on how many different representation boxes they could check off. It was an element that seemed more reflective of how they wanted to be perceived in doing so than it was the desire to tell a story. It was kind of like deliberate retaliation/reparation for all the Doctors being white males up until the last regeneration. Given the seeming/open disdain for white males in the show is why I said that I was surprised that they allowed a white male among the many regenerations.

I thank you for your prior restraint but whatever you are saying/implying with your "wise maxim" is a can of worms I don't have the energy to open.

 

[TexLaw]

I thank you for your prior restraint but whatever you are saying/implying with your "wise maxim" is a can of worms I don't have the energy to open.

You've opened it again and again. Perhaps, you just don't want to deal with what is inside the can. It is pretty ugly, after all.

 

[Haggises]

First of, the only time the words "Doctor Who canon" every should be written or spoken is if they are preceeded by the words "there is no" or followed by "doesn't exist." The only thing Doctor Who that has gone on longer than the debate about what is canon or whether exists at all (or should) is the series, itself.

Second, I don't mind this sort of thing when it's well done. Chibnall came through on this with a interesting development that makes sense in the larger picture of what we've seen with the Time Lords, The Doctor, and their relationship with the universe and each other. Certainly, there are blanks and trivia to fill in around all this, but that also needs to be done in the course of telling the story. This isn't like

Thirdly, always remember that we only know what we've seen, and there's so much more to be seen.

Yup, yup and thrice yup.

But it is a rewrite of canon. This is totally new information about the Doctor that is contrary to what was known before.

Yes the Timeless Child is new, but not necessarily the pre-Hartnell Doctors or the Doctor’s being part of Time Lord legends.

 

[imatabor]

Yes the Timeless Child is new, but not necessarily the pre-Hartnell Doctors or the Doctor’s being part of Time Lord legends.

I agree and have no issue with adding it to the storyline. The thing I'm struggling with is that the Doctor isn't Gallifreyan.

 

[TexLaw]

I agree and have no issue with adding it to the storyline. The thing I'm struggling with is that the Doctor isn't Gallifreyan.

The Doctor is struggling with that, as well!

 

[CowboyBlue]

As an adopted child who fit in so well with my adopted family that we ALL forgot that I was adopted, I kind of enjoyed the idea of the Doctor being the Timeless Child and absorbed into the Gallifreyan culture, etc. But then again, the aboriginal woman who found the Timeless Child was not "Gallifreyan" either. It seems that the Time Lords were engineered from two sets of genetic material.

Well, what do you know ... The Time Lord edict that there may only be 12 regenerations applies only to Time Lords. And, since the Doctor is the Timeless Child and not a Time Lord, the Doctor is not subject to that limitation.

Sidebar - I noted the distinction between Time Lords moving through time and the separate notion of timelessness. They were not mean to be timeless (I have a hard time saying "eternal"). And there was a pained look on the Doctor's face when she confronted the concept that her regenerations would be limitless. It was THEN that she took the explosive and was prepared to sacrifice her own life.

 

[Haggises]

I had nothing to watch yesterday

 

[TexLaw]

I had nothing to watch yesterday

Yeah, it was a little weird. We're just a few steps into the long trek to the next season, with a brief stop during "the holidays."

 

[TexLaw]

https://screenrant.com/doctor-who-division-brendan-time-lord-secret/

This was interesting and fun. I didn't know some of this stuff and had forgotten about other stuff.

 

[Doc4]

Very interesting information, which hopefully won't upset the White Knights.

 

[Doc4]

Corona Virus put lots of spare time on your hands? Tired of re-watching "Warriors of the Deep"?

 

[Doc4]

I just finished watching "The Faceless Ones" and thought I'd offer my thoughts.

I got the DVD ... I understand there's a Blu-ray version too. Anyhow. First off, a minor pet peeve: I don't like that The Powers That Be insist on using "the current version" of the Dr Who title for all the DVDs from all the different eras. I think it would be much better to use the era-appropriate version for each show (eg: always use the "diamond" logo for the Pertwee/Baker shows for the years they used that, rather than whatever the "modern" version is.) I know that the Dr Who DVD issues have "always" used the "current" logo for all DVDs ... or at least the same logo for all issues ... no doubt wanting to have the entire DVD issue look the same ... but ... I think they missed the boat there.

Anyhow. Not a big deal ... but it bugs me.

On with the show. The DVD version I got has three discs: the first disc has all 6 episodes in animated black-n-white, and the option to swap in the two existing episodes (1 and 3 if memory serves) if you want. Disc two has all 6 episodes in animated colour. Disc three has a few "bonus" materials.

I chose to watch the colour-animated version. It's ... not bad. The biggest issue, for me, is that this is a low-budget production, and that shows up in somewhat clunky animation. Now, those of us who have admired the Troughton-era shows that exist in their original format will know how animated and expressive Troughton's face can be on a regular basis ...

... and the animation just can't really capture that.

I can accept a lot of the restrictions of the animation ... but knowing how much of the original show would have been Troughton's expressive face ... and it's not there ... it's a bit distracting.

Comparing some of the existing footage with the animated version, you can see how the animators didn't do a frame-by-frame copy but changed things a bit ... generally (it seems) to make a few scenes easier to animate. Not a huge deal for me, but it does underline the "lack of action" notion.

So, it appears that the soundtrack of the show exists in a useable format ... I didn't notice any significant problems in terms of audio quality for mid-60s vintage. That, at least, was seamless to my mind. And it was kind of cool to see the opening sequence done in colour ... although the blend into Troughton's face was klunky.

So, the current offering exists "somewhere" in between actually having the original shows existing on one end, and watching the soundtrack and "telesnaps" on the other ... but where? (Longtime Whovians will remember telesnaps ... basically they "automatically" took a photo of what was on the screen every 30 seconds or so during filming.) Well, the animation is certainly better than the telesnaps. If I wasn't a dedicated Whovian I probably wouldn't be too interested in this so-so animation. But as it is, it's a good way to watch the show (more or less) in an entertaining way. So ... bottom line: worthwhile for whovians who are actually interested in this sort of thing. If you are watching old Dr Who from the 60s anyhow, in this day and age, you'll be willing to put up with less-than-perfect animations.

And you will put up with ... or perhaps even enjoy ... the slower pace of storytelling from that era. Yeah, they probably could have tightened the 6 episodes up into 4 perhaps ... but IMHO it's a better problem to have compared to most "modern" Dr Who shows being too cramped into one 50 minute show.

I'll include this review of the DVD from "Stubagful". Note, there ARE spoilers of the story/plot in here. Normally, the statute of limitations would have expired on this by now but ... since many of you may not have seen the story ever before, I'll warn you.

My thoughts on the story itself:

Spoiler

I liked the story overall but ... I thought the way that the Doctor "turned" the few aliens who had their "double" back on Earth seemed weak. It didn't make sense that those doubles were left there, and it seemed obvious that the end result of them giving up would be the deactivation of those doubles anyhow so no real "solution" ... basically the Doctor just says "your scientists will have to think of a different solution" and the aliens just go with "um ... okay". Seemed a bit weak.

 

[oc_in_fw]

The episode in and of itself was a good one entertainment and story-wise (with a few cringes) but it was pretty much a big middle finger to the longtime fans and the Doctor Who which preceded it. The Doctor only has 12 regenerations? Don't be silly! The Doctor is now timeless! If the Doctor gets tired of their current look, he/she/it can change it as easily as yesterday's t-shirt! They've got lives to burn! The "it's about time-ers" must have been ecstatic to learn that the original Time Lord was a female of color. In the multiple regeneration scene alone they easily filled up their diversity bingo cards. (I'm kind of shocked that they actually allowed a white male in there.) Can you say "virtue signaling" boys and girls? How nice and progressive is that?!

It's a fact that Chibnall doesn't care what the fans think. He's stated that he doesn't engage in social media, doesn't read press coverage and doesn't read reviews though he is aware of the negative blow back from his tenure on the show. "In terms of external opinions, it's not a democracy. We make the show we want to make." There are many out there who dismiss the complaints of those who say that the show is "too PC" as if there were no basis to the argument. The head of drama at the BBC has come right out and said that the BBC has a duty to be woke in the way that it tells it's stories. BBC has a duty to be 'woke' in the way it tells stories, says head of drama Piers Wenger So apparently woke programming is the highest virtue and nothing else really matters. The steadily falling ratings for Doctor Who seem to show how well that strategy is working.

Annoyances aside, I actually enjoyed the episode and think that it was probably one of the best episodes of this and last season. I'd still very much welcome a new Doctor, new/fewer companions, new writers, a new show runner and a new direction but it looks like I have a long wait in store for me.

Then again, I don’t believe a thing the Master has to say. He could be lying.