Doctor Who - Warning, Spoilers!

[Raissermesser]

Personally I like Doctor Who because it's a continuation of my golden age of childhood TV. Like I posted above it's always had a message. Sometimes subtle (Delta and the Bannermen) , sometimes a fist to the head (Orphan 55, The Green Death) That's irrelevant to this complaint.
What's relevant is the incessant complaining about the same stuff, over and over. It's dull, it's boring and it drives away any conversation about the show.
I look back almost fondly on the "Moffat is ruining this show and must GO" diatribes.

So is cutting a blank check simply for our fondness of something. Really: I liked ST:TOS, but some episodes were real clunkers. And just because something has the ST brand doesn't automatically mean that it's good.

But since you mentioned one of my favorite episodes, Delta and the Bannermen, that's a good example of story first, message second. And a good story, indeed. Fun, deliberately over-the-top, a nice dig toward the 50s craze, and comic relief in the form of two bumbling American agents.

Now: I did catch part of one episode of the Dr Who revival, and...I wasn't impressed. Seeing part of the next and a repetition of a same theme had me going "No, thank you." Not repeating the same theme can be hard when writing, as I caught myself almost doing for a current work in progress, so I'm not trashing them for that. But it does get tiresome.

 

[Raissermesser]

That the defense just changes the words to push the same tired diatribe? More predictable than ironic.

We’ll have to add message fiction to the bingo card.

Shrug. Do whatever pleases you. But message fiction is a real thing, so much so that it usually defines entire genres, such as Christian Fiction (the gospel or some aspect of it is front and center in the stories). The question is whether Dr Who stories have become message fiction in its own right.

 

[Haggises]

So is cutting a blank check simply for our fondness of something. Really: I liked ST:TOS, but some episodes were real clunkers. And just because something has the ST brand doesn't automatically mean that it's good.

But since you mentioned one of my favorite episodes, Delta and the Bannermen, that's a good example of story first, message second. And a good story, indeed. Fun, deliberately over-the-top, a nice dig toward the 50s craze, and comic relief in the form of two bumbling American agents.

Now: I did catch part of one episode of the Dr Who revival, and...I wasn't impressed. Seeing part of the next and a repetition of a same theme had me going "No, thank you." Not repeating the same theme can be hard when writing, as I caught myself almost doing for a current work in progress, so I'm not trashing them for that. But it does get tiresome.

I don't cut a blank check. You're putting words in mouth that I didn't say. Old Who has a lot of clunkers, as does New.
You just agreed with what I said on D&TB. Subtle message.
So you've seen one episode of New Who, yet you're an expert on how it's tiresome, repeating message fiction?
(insert paraphrased Inigo Montoya here - you keep using that phrase... )

 

[Haggises]

Watched Praxeus. A bit better than Orphan 55, but kinda meh. Right up there with Knock Knock.

 

[Raissermesser]

I don't cut a blank check. You're putting words in mouth that I didn't say. Old Who has a lot of clunkers, as does New.
You just agreed with what I said on D&TB. Subtle message.
So you've seen one episode of New Who, yet you're an expert on how it's tiresome, repeating message fiction?
(insert paraphrased Inigo Montoya here - you keep using that phrase... )

Oh? The reason so many series are such a big draw is precisely because at one time they were actually good. But compare The Curse of the Black Pearl, the first Pirates of the Caribbean film, with On Stranger Tides, and ask if it would have had as much of a draw if it wasn't for the first and second film in the series. You want an SF TV reference? Star Trek and Planet of the Apes. Want a literary SF reference? The original Dune series. By the time I got to Children of Dune, it was more to finish the series than anything else. Maybe a sitcom? There's a well known one that gave birth to the phrase "Jumped the shark."

And I said it was repetition of a theme. That's nowhere near the same as message or even moral. The theme in this case was consumption of humans. Well, that plays on a very basic fear and goes all the way back to Beowolf and probably long before, and Dr Who has certainly relied on it many times. But what stood out was in the way it was handled in an exchange of dialog, and that was the repetition of the theme.

Referencing my own efforts, I had a certain type of death for villains that showed up twice. In outlining my work in progress, it showed up again. All three are very different plots, but the repetition is in the demise. That gets tiresome to the reader. Had to do something about that.

I stand by my statement that after seeing that, decided the new ones weren't for me. Note that nowhere did I mention a message.

Where it stands now is the question of whether the current Dr Who is eat up with message fiction. That I do not know, but after events like the asterisks incident in Spokane and comments by some publishers and editors, that is very likely. If you want to accuse me of assuming the current Dr Who has sunk to Let That be You Last Battlefield level of message fiction, so be it. I do assume that based on what's happened in SF.

Thus, the question to avid fans of Dr Who is whether it's become a vehicle for message fiction or is plot driven like a good story should be.

 

[rockviper]

 

[cleanshaved]

….Warning, Spoilers!
True that. sigh.

 

[Dave-the-rave]

Warning!!!

Spoiler

 

[Haggises]

Raissermeiser, i’ll leave this conversation with one thought.
You’re missing some of the best acted, best produced, best scripted Who there is.
Midnight. The Girl in the Fireplace. Vincent and the Doctor. Heaven Sent. The Day of the Doctor.

I’d put those up against any of the best episodes of Tom Baker or Jon Pertwee or Patrick Troughton.
These are no Sisterhood of Dune drawn past their time. These are fresh continuations of what Doctor Who is.

 

[imatabor]

Raissermeiser, i’ll leave this conversation with one thought.
You’re missing some of the best acted, best produced, best scripted Who there is.
Midnight. The Girl in the Fireplace. Vincent and the Doctor. Heaven Sent. The Day of the Doctor.

Love your list but need to add Blink!

 

[Raissermesser]

Raissermeiser, i’ll leave this conversation with one thought.
You’re missing some of the best acted, best produced, best scripted Who there is.
Midnight. The Girl in the Fireplace. Vincent and the Doctor. Heaven Sent. The Day of the Doctor.

I’d put those up against any of the best episodes of Tom Baker or Jon Pertwee or Patrick Troughton.
These are no Sisterhood of Dune drawn past their time. These are fresh continuations of what Doctor Who is.

Very well. What I find flustrating in all of this no one is presenting an argument of why the current episodes are message fiction or why they are not. It shouldn't be hard, and should be as simple as me posting that I hoped the beekeeper in Delta and the Bannermen would turn out to be an aged Sherlock Holmes.

 

[mikelz777]

Raissermeiser, i’ll leave this conversation with one thought.
You’re missing some of the best acted, best produced, best scripted Who there is.
Midnight. The Girl in the Fireplace. Vincent and the Doctor. Heaven Sent. The Day of the Doctor.

I’d put those up against any of the best episodes of Tom Baker or Jon Pertwee or Patrick Troughton.
These are no Sisterhood of Dune drawn past their time. These are fresh continuations of what Doctor Who is.

Now this is something I can agree with. I don't have the perspective to be able to compare with old Doctor Who as I only know new Doctor Who but there have been wonderfully acted, produced and scripted episodes among the new Doctor Whos which were as good/better than any sci-fi I've seen on TV. My favorite among those mentioned is probably The Girl in the Fireplace as it's the first one that comes to mind when thinking of favorites. Vincent and the Doctor made me cry. I too would add Blink to the list. I'd also add a couple of two-parters, Human Nature/Family of Blood and Empty Child/The Doctor Dances. I was always fond of Tooth and Claw as well. I don't think that it rises to the level of a great episode but it was a lot of silly/scary fun. I'd also note that nothing mentioned so far is from the Chibnall/Whittaker era. I don't think we've seen anything yet that could possibly be considered classic.

 

[mikelz777]

Very well. What I find flustrating in all of this no one is presenting an argument of why the current episodes are message fiction or why they are not. It shouldn't be hard, and should be as simple as me posting that I hoped the beekeeper in Delta and the Bannermen would turn out to be an aged Sherlock Holmes.

This is parody of course but the humor found in parody is its basis in truth.

 

[mikelz777]

Oh and in case you watched the video and were still wondering, yes, tragically they actually put a pregnant man on one episode.

 

[Haggises]

Can you hear me - good plot, great tension, creepy villains and a slightly too rushed conclusion.
I'd call that a pretty good episode.
The end scenes were really quite moving.

Looks like the companions won't be around too much longer...

 

[imatabor]

Can you hear me - good plot, great tension, creepy villains and a slightly too rushed conclusion.
I'd call that a pretty good episode.
The end scenes were really quite moving.

Looks like the companions won't be around too much longer...

I agree. I found it entertaining. I do wish they would have taken more time building the solution though. I also would like an episode where she loses the Sonic and has to get along without it. It seems like it is an instant cure all. Nothing new, seems like all the new doctors uses it as a crutch.

I do hope to see the companions thinned out.

 

[Haggises]

I agree. I found it entertaining. I do wish they would have taken more time building the solution though. I also would like an episode where she loses the Sonic and has to get along without it. It seems like it is an instant cure all. Nothing new, seems like all the new doctors uses it as a crutch.

I do hope to see the companions thinned out.

One of the things I loved about the Day Of The Doctor was the comedic appearance of the sonic.
From comparison of sizes, to confusing the polarity, to Hurt's "What are you going to do, Assemble a cabinet at them?", to the scanning of the unlocked wooden door and finally to something useful, the scrambling of zygon/human brain waves.
I loved the sonic sunglasses for the same reason - the sonic can be very silly indeed. When it's all serious and deus ex machina, it loses a lot of impact.

 

[imatabor]

I loved the sonic sunglasses for the same reason

Okay, you had me until here. The glasses we're pure over the top silliness.

 

[TexLaw]

I didn't care for the last episode. It got off to a great start but then quit. Just as I was getting into it, The Doctor waved the sonic around a few times, and that was that.

And that's why I'm with y'all on the sonic getting silly. It's become a magic wand. The Doctor used to poke around and investigate and used to make stuff. It's almost all sonic, now, although I did like the way they dealt with the hair. That wax good stuff.

And I cheered the way The War Doctor fussed at his future incarnations about the sonic! That was brilliant!

 

[mikelz777]

I wasn't really a fan of the last episode either. It was kinda meh. The Doctor seemed too clingy and desperate at the prospect of being without the companions for what, 24 hours? She then zooms off to Aleppo to fill the time and is talking to the companions whom she left just moments ago forgetting that they weren't with her. Then she announces the theme of this weeks episode. The whole scene did not play well and she couldn't sell it. It all pointed to weak writing. The episode then picked up with the monster and villains and overall the whole nightmare/dreams element seemed to work. The whole finger bit was original and interesting. They spent a lot of time fleshing out this weeks theme with the companions. I too hope that they are signaling the exit of 1 or more companions.