Do You Think There Be a Muhle 2013 R41 Jet?

[AABCDS]

This is pure speculation on my part and I have not read anything to the contrary but I guy can dream right?

In the past, I hoped that they would come out with a rose gold, Grande handle but never did so I ended up buying two razors instead of just one. Darn you, Muhle!

The R89 Jet was pretty popular. I did a quick search online and the only place I could find that still had it in stock was a vendor in New Zealand or Australia.

It'd be nice if Muhle did DLC coat the 2013 R41 because I haven't tried the 2013 R41 yet so I could kill two birds with one stone but that didn't work out last time. Of course, with my luck, it would come out during 2014 while I'm on sabbatical.

 

[Rockminer]

I wish they would come out with brass or stainless versions of all their razors, instead of putting lipstick on the pot metal versions. The DLC does look cool though.

 

[AABCDS]

That would be nice. I wonder how much more the razors would be.

 

[Rockminer]

That would be nice. I wonder how much more the razors would be.

Well, Weber is doing a stainless steel turned handle and stainless head for $70. I don't know if Muhle/EJ could or would entertain that price point or not. I know I sure would like an all stainless 2011 R41 head, at least, and don't care what plating/non plating it comes with

 

[chamm]

My number one concern with my R41 is whether or not it's going to be around in 40 years. (Probably about as long as I can hope to have left, under the best of circumstances.) Zamak/pot metal is known to have longevity issues, and I've even discovered a few places in the chrome of my R41 that will probably lead to corrosion of the Zamak within a few years. DLC looks really cool, and might provide a slight increase in longevity over chrome plating, but in the grand scheme, probably not that much.

Here's why the brass/stainless thing probably won't happen: it would involve a complete re-tooling of Mühle's production line. Like, completely, from the ground up. One of the nice things about Zamak is that it is relatively easy to cast. It has a casting temperature around 250°C, which means the die can be made of a hard metal with a much higher melting temperature, and casting can be churned out easily. Also, once formed, Zamak doesn't deform much as it cools.

Stainless and brass, on the other hand, are much more difficult to work with. While they can be cast, the casting temperatures are much higher, around 920°C for brass and 1500°c for stainless. (source)That means they are usually cast by a much more complicated processes such as sand casting or investment casting in which a positive wax model is molded into a negative sand, clay or ceramic cast into which the metal is poured. Not only is this many times more labor intensive, but both the model and the mold are destroyed in the casting process, so it's not quickly repeatable. Additionally, since the parts are cast in sand, not solid metal, they aren't smooth, and still need to be machined into their final forms.

Now, of course, the question that naturally comes up after all this is "what about all those companies that do it?" Ikon and Weber use a process called sintering, which is less expensive. However, that process is not without it's limitations. The product is molded from powder rather than liquid, and while I don't know this for fact, I would guess the design of the R41 was designed with liquid casting in mind. Switching it to a powder sintering process would probably necessarily change the design of the head, and again, Mühle's production line would need to be redesigned.

Other manufacturers, such as Above The Tie use a completely different process of CNC milling a block of stainless steel. This is a one-at-a-time operation involving slower production and a huge up-front investment in equipment. There's a reason ATT stuff is so expensive. And of course there is Gillette from the first half of the 20th century. I don't know this as fact, but I would guess that they probably set up very expensive production lines based around pressing and machining brass, not casting it. The designs of their razors were much simpler than the R41, so they could press a baseplate out of a sheet of brass, then machine things like open tooth combs and safety bars. The caps are just a curved pressed sheet with some brass posts press-fitted into holes. Again, not too fancy. What's more, consider that Gillette made these machines, then had years and millions and millions of razors to make up that investment cost. Mühle probably made fewer razors last year than Gillette made in two weeks in 1918.

As with everything I say, I could be completely wrong about all of this. In fact, I hope that I am. I have no special inside knowledge of high-volume manufacturing. I have a music degree, I work as a sysadmin in IT, I'm very good at Google searches and I watch a lot of How It's Made with my kids. I just want to have realistic expectations. DLC coating doesn't involve any significant change to the current production techniques. It's nothing more than taking carbide powder, cheaply available and commonly applied to saw blades and drill bits, and coating an existing Zamak razor. It's realistic to hope that Mühle will release a R41 Jet in the near future, and frankly, I'd be very surprised if they weren't actively planning such a beast. Re-designing and rebuilding their entire production line, despite how awesome it would be, would be costly, and Mühle isn't a charity. They're not going to do it unless they're likely to make money.

 

[Rockminer]

That's well written Chamm.

You may very well be spot on with your assessment as I don't begin to know the process and up front expenditure of such an endeavor, and I don't know how Weber produces their heads and handles, but I have to believe if it was that much money up front then Weber is loosing thousands on his razors. I can't believe he's not making some kind of profit. I don't know this for a fact but I would think that Weber gets the heads and possibly the handles from an outsourced company who already has the tools and machines to make such a product. If a small company like Weber can make them for the price he's selling them for, then I have to think that Muhle could do it if they wanted to. I'm not saying that Muhle should just make stainless razors only, because they fill a niche and should continue to do so, but offering a higher end product would be a plus to some of us, even if they were more expensive than the Weber. JMO

 

[chamm]

Well, if Weber is using sintering, then their upfront cost isn't necessarily huge. Compared to lost wax casting, it's pretty inexpensive. However, the DLC/PH heads (I believe they are the same cast) were designed from the ground up to use that process. I can't be sure the Weber, but I have an Ikon OC and Standard plate, and the designs are pretty straightforward, with no acute angles, and no nooks and crannies where a liquid would need to flow. My guess is that Mühle probably could replicate that process profitably, however, the design would probably need to be fundamentally changed. Again, not outside the scope of what Mühle is capable of, but you're talking about huge manufacturing changes. Mühle has been around for several decades, and probably not willing to make such a risky investment based on feedback from an Internet forum. They would need to do design, market testing and all that other stuff that goes into making a product. Weber, Ikon and ATT were just a guy, or a couple of guys, and they just dove into their ventures, without a large company's financial stability at stake.

I hate sounding like a contrarian. I would love it if the design and aggressiveness of the R41 could be replicated in stainless steel. If that happens, though, I don't expect it to come from Mühle. More likely a smaller startup with much less to lose, and a different (but equally aggressive) design.

 

[Rockminer]

Yeah, it's a pipe dream. At least we have companies producing stainless steel goodies, some of them pretty close in aggressiveness to the R41.

 

[mrdo1]

James,
I bought one from muhle usa you can email them and they will let you know how to order one.
John

This is pure speculation on my part and I have not read anything to the contrary but I guy can dream right?

In the past, I hoped that they would come out with a rose gold, Grande handle but never did so I ended up buying two razors instead of just one. Darn you, Muhle!

The R89 Jet was pretty popular. I did a quick search online and the only place I could find that still had it in stock was a vendor in New Zealand or Australia.

It'd be nice if Muhle did DLC coat the 2013 R41 because I haven't tried the 2013 R41 yet so I could kill two birds with one stone but that didn't work out last time. Of course, with my luck, it would come out during 2014 while I'm on sabbatical.

 

[AABCDS]

James,
I bought one from muhle usa you can email them and they will let you know how to order one.
John

A Muhle 2013 R41 Jet?!

Email sent!

 

[chamm]

Yeah, I just fired off my email. I'm pretty sure the folks at Mühle USA are in for an onslaught of requests...

 

[Rockminer]

Something makes me think he was talking about the R89. I hope not though.

 

[AABCDS]

I'm glad I made this thread. I would never have known otherwise.

Something makes me think he was talking about the R89. I hope not though.

Good point. I think you're probably right but it couldn't hurt to ask. I think John was addressing the fact that I pointed out the R89 Jet was sold out in a lot of places. I'll post the response here from Muhle USA.

 

[mrdo1]

Sorry guys I was talking about the R89 jet.

 

[chamm]

Don't apologize, maybe we'll give them ideas. ;-)

 

[AABCDS]

Here is the reply I just received:

We produced the R89 in JET for the Holidays. However it is completely sold out

Thank you