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Do we overemphasise stones? Paste vs stoned edge?

I'm glad that there are several here reporting they use clean leather or clean linen&leather as the final step before shaving with a stone, synthetic, or pasted balsa edge.

I have on a few occasions gotten distracted and forgotten my clean hanging fabric/leather final stropping. I always notice the harsher feel immediately.
I'm a clean linen, clean leather guy. :)
 
In my carving tool stropping I have learned that 400 or 600 grit SiC on leather cuts much finer than would be expected because it embeds in the leather of course it can't hurt that it's somewhat friable too.. But even fresh 400 or 600 is much finer on leather than a soft Arkansas and quickly brings up a near mirror edge.
That's really interesting!
 

Legion

Staff member
First, abandon what is is considered pure. That's nonsense. The objective is to have a sharp edge that shaves your face well without irritation. What I've found recently, through experimentation, is a pasted balsa strop produces more consistent results than pasted fabric. For me, it's easier to control. Essentially, you are creating a finer grit than you can get with a stone. So... stone vs pasted strop? No. A progression of finer grits up to the point where, in my case, it's too sharp and you need to back off; or you reach the limits of the medium (can get no sharper) using diamond pastes on a balsa strop that @Slash McCoy references.
Mmmmm....

Depends on why you are doing it. Speaking personally, if my only goal was a consistently sharp blade, a repeatable result and a close shave I probably would never had explored further than DE razors. And I could do it with a SR over a decade ago.

Same with the various "methods" and whathaveyou. I don't want paint by numbers, because the experimenting with different stones, razors, leathers, and combinations of the above is what I find interesting.

That is a YMMV, because I have been doing this for quite a while, so hunting for, and trying weird old stuff, particularly esoteric bits of rock from around the world is what keeps me from getting bored with what is really a pretty basic chore.

Easy and foolproof was never really what I was chasing when I took up straight razor shaving.
 
Easy, inexpensive, and foolproof was never really what I was chasing when I took up straight razor shaving.

FTFY! :p

I don't want paint by numbers, because the experimenting with different stones, edges, razors, leathers, and combinations of the above is what I find interesting.

This really gets to the heart of it. Finding something that really clicks for your face, beard, and temperament is what makes this more than just about hair removal.
 

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
I found painting by numbers worked well for me when starting. It gave me a basic understanding of what I was doing (and good consistent shave-ready edges). From there I ventured into the world of naturals. I don't think that I will get keener edges than what I get with numbers but I am getting different edges.

If I just wanted the sharpest edges, I would stick with diamond pasted balsa. I am now looking at how different edges from different finishers handle.
 
Pastes can be very underwhelming, when used in the same tired old way.

A handful of us here pursued the dragon, and caught that rascal, finally, when it all came together. A pasted balsa edge can be extremely sharp, while still shaving comfortably. More comfortably by far, than a 12k Naniwa or a 1µ 3M 261x lapping film edge. A lot of people think they have tried pastes but they did not actually try, or try the right way. If you do it randomly, you get random results. Haphazard methods, haphazard results. Freestyle technique, freestyle results.

First, understand that the balsa must be properly prepared, or it simply will not deliver peak performance. Slap dash balsa prep = meh results. Second, it is a progression of three stages, not a single stage. Third, stopping at .5µ or .25µ will increase sharpness, but only at the expense of comfort. It is a sour spot where it is difficult to get a smooth and comfortable shave, and going over the hump, to .1µ diamond makes it feel great. Third, no, you can't get optimum results going straight from 12k or 1µ film to .1µ diamond paste on balsa. It won't work. 4th, the properly prepared balsa progression WILL NOT MAKE YOUR RAZOR SHARP. There are two things that it will do. One is to make your sharp razor a lot sharper and probably shave more comfortably, and the other is to maintain your very very sharp razor's edge indefinitely, without returning to stone or film. 5th, the approach that has been found to work best is very light pressure, lots of laps. If you are used to doing 6 to 10 laps on linen pasted with CrOx, you are going to have a tremendous mental block to overcome.

I am not gonna write a book here, nor stand still and be hammered with 150 questions that have already been answered. There is a very long thread that should be regarded as required reading, if you hope to make the balsa work for you. All questions on this have been asked and answered. The technique has evolved, and so you have to read all the way to the end. Some things do not change, and have not been mentioned in years, and so you have to start at the beginning, not just skim the last 10 pages. The system WORKS, when you follow it exactly. When you rely upon your own understanding and judgement, you will not get the results that we get. You might get good results. You probably won't get spectacular results and you will wonder how you got talked into buying $100 worth of balsa, acrylic, and paste, for not much improvement at all. Do it with zero substitutions and zero omissions or additions, and you will amaze yourself.

That's not to say that you will like it. Some guys just like messing about with rocks. That's okay, and I get that. Some guys don't like an edge sharp enough to cut skin if they get a little careless. Okay, cool. Lots of guys start as newbies with "The Method", and once they master it, they move on to different honing styles. That's fine. You might give it a try, and even after getting great results, want to move on to more challenging skill and tool sets. But if you follow The Method unquestioningly, with precision and dogmatic dedication, by your second razor you can well have an edge that outperforms many DE blades and matches even the best ones. You will always carry that knowledge with you, of how to do it and what results you can expect from it.

How To Use a Pasted Balsa Strop - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/how-to-use-a-pasted-balsa-strop.473580/.


Now I'm very much in the buggering-around-with-rocks camp, in fact it was the reason I started using straights - I had a lot of very nice stones that were gathering dust because they were too fine for knife use. But it strikes me that there's another potential upside to film/pasted balsa/TM in comparison to natural stones that doesn't get talked about so much...

A lot of the harder and/or more wear-resistant knife and razor steels are dancing right up around the level of what natural stones can actually abrade.

Do you ever have razors where natural stones simply won't make much of an impression, no matter how good you are at using them? Where at some point the hone dulling effect outweighs the sharpening they're able to do, and so to push the steel to the final level something like film / diamond is actually a necessity...?

(Obviosuly that q. is in regard to natural silica based stones, not AlOx based synths.)
 
Do you ever have razors where natural stones simply won't make much of an impression, no matter how good you are at using them?
I've had a couple that are very wear resistant and stubborn where I struggled to get a natural edge I was happy with. So I used diamond paste to confirm that they could take and hold a fine edge. Ultimately they just take longer to get there on stones (synth or natural). One in particular took a *lot* longer. It was worth it though.
 

Slash McCoy

I freehand dog rockets
Now I'm very much in the buggering-around-with-rocks camp, in fact it was the reason I started using straights - I had a lot of very nice stones that were gathering dust because they were too fine for knife use. But it strikes me that there's another potential upside to film/pasted balsa/TM in comparison to natural stones that doesn't get talked about so much...

A lot of the harder and/or more wear-resistant knife and razor steels are dancing right up around the level of what natural stones can actually abrade.

Do you ever have razors where natural stones simply won't make much of an impression, no matter how good you are at using them? Where at some point the hone dulling effect outweighs the sharpening they're able to do, and so to push the steel to the final level something like film / diamond is actually a necessity...?

(Obviosuly that q. is in regard to natural silica based stones, not AlOx based synths.)
I don't think I can really say that. Of course some naturals are very slow, and take a lot of work to make an impression. That doesn't mean that they don't work. IMHO film and balsa or synthetic and balsa are more consistent and give better results, given equally skilled usage, and diligent pursuit of the best edge possible. Usually if a razor simply can't develop an edge with naturals that have a proven track record, it won't get much of an edge on film, either, and as for the balsa, it really doesn't work well at all, unless a razor has been taken to the max on a good finisher. If you start the progression with say 3µ and 1µ diamond paste, yeah, maybe, but something about the edge formed by diamond on balsa at regular honing grits just doesn't please me, and I really can't put a finger on it.

I honestly haven't used a lot of different naturals. I have owned ONE Jnat and ONE coticule, and several Arkies, only ONE that was truly a finisher, but they all put at least a "good" edge on a razor if I did my part, unless it was a razor that nothing at all could hone. Usually this would be a RSO.

There are a lot of ways to customize the action of a natural, or for that matter, a synth stone. Slurry density and how well it has further broken down from the honing process, viscosity of the honing fluid, surface prep, and the multiple dimensions of the actual honing process. Film has fewer adjustments to make. It's right, or it's not quite right. Flat plate? Check. No debris or bubbles under film? Check. Film piece not already excessively worn? Check. That's about it, apart from the actual honing stroke. You can leave your Zen and your science at home, for the most part. Good thing or bad thing, that's up to the user. Some people are more comfortable with being able to put their own art into the edge. Some just want the edge.

I will go so far as to say that if a razor can't be honed on a proven good coticule or Jnat, it probably can't be honed very well on film, either, or synthetic stone, and balsa is best relegated to a post-finisher role, so sort of out of the argument. YMMV of course.
 
I’m not particularly well researched on this topic but I could make some assumptions that probably aren’t too far off. From the vantage point of the barbers of days gone by the purpose of the compound would be to delay the need for Honing as much as possible as you’ve suggested.

Now from a modern standpoint a lot of people use a pasted component for a similar reason or it might just be a preference. But for those that prefer a stone edge it’s hard to say if many of us are essentially honing more than we really need to or not.
 
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I've had a couple that are very wear resistant and stubborn where I struggled to get a natural edge I was happy with. So I used diamond paste to confirm that they could take and hold a fine edge. Ultimately they just take longer to get there on stones (synth or natural). One in particular took a *lot* longer. It was worth it though.

I don't think I can really say that. Of course some naturals are very slow, and take a lot of work to make an impression. That doesn't mean that they don't work. IMHO film and balsa or synthetic and balsa are more consistent and give better results, given equally skilled usage, and diligent pursuit of the best edge possible. Usually if a razor simply can't develop an edge with naturals that have a proven track record, it won't get much of an edge on film, either, and as for the balsa, it really doesn't work well at all, unless a razor has been taken to the max on a good finisher. If you start the progression with say 3µ and 1µ diamond paste, yeah, maybe, but something about the edge formed by diamond on balsa at regular honing grits just doesn't please me, and I really can't put a finger on it.

I honestly haven't used a lot of different naturals. I have owned ONE Jnat and ONE coticule, and several Arkies, only ONE that was truly a finisher, but they all put at least a "good" edge on a razor if I did my part, unless it was a razor that nothing at all could hone. Usually this would be a RSO.

There are a lot of ways to customize the action of a natural, or for that matter, a synth stone. Slurry density and how well it has further broken down from the honing process, viscosity of the honing fluid, surface prep, and the multiple dimensions of the actual honing process. Film has fewer adjustments to make. It's right, or it's not quite right. Flat plate? Check. No debris or bubbles under film? Check. Film piece not already excessively worn? Check. That's about it, apart from the actual honing stroke. You can leave your Zen and your science at home, for the most part. Good thing or bad thing, that's up to the user. Some people are more comfortable with being able to put their own art into the edge. Some just want the edge.

I will go so far as to say that if a razor can't be honed on a proven good coticule or Jnat, it probably can't be honed very well on film, either, or synthetic stone, and balsa is best relegated to a post-finisher role, so sort of out of the argument. YMMV of course.


Cheers for the thoughts guys. Sounds like for razors then that there might not be that point where one thing works but the other simply doesn't.

The reason I was wondering was that I have sharpened some knife steels that just bounced off the large majority of natural stones. One in particular haunts me... CPM S90v can be treated very hard indeed, up to 68+ is possible apparently. But in this instance they'd left it 'only' at 63, to maximise the toughness as well as hardness, and it just laughed at almost anything I threw at it, regardless of slurry, pressure or technique.

Things like that are why vitrified diamond stones are becoming increasingly popular in the knife world, but that kind of extreme wear resistance probably isn't something that would be a desirable consideration in a razor steel. I highly doubt anyone would dream of making a straight from something as irritating as 'CPM S90v'.
 
Things like that are why vitrified diamond stones are becoming increasingly popular in the knife world, but that kind of extreme wear resistance probably isn't something that would be a desirable consideration in a razor steel. I highly doubt anyone would dream of making a straight from something as irritating as 'CPM S90v'.
I have one made from CPM-M4. It's a challenge to deal with.
 
Hardness and abrasive resistance are two different properties.


Yep indeed, that was my point about why it was so difficult to sharpen. They’d intentionally HT-ed the knife a fair bit lower than the steel could go, to increase toughness and wear-resistance.

(I’m not a steel expert btw, just going on what the knifemaker said. If you search ‘Oxys passaround’ there’s a thread on KKF, that has a load more detail about it than I can remember now.)
 
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Hardness and abrasive resistance are two different properties.


According to the producer: "We found 63 HRC to be a sweet spot within the hardness - toughness - edge retention dance."

Which is clever knifemaker jargon for: "Hopefully you've got a spare $500 to drop on vitrified diamond."
 
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According to the producer: "We found 63 HRC to be a sweet spot within the hardness - toughness - edge retention dance."

Which is clever knifemaker jargon for: "Hopefully you've got a spare $500 to spend on vitrified diamond."
I only have one knife i M390, and i have Vetrified diamond stones. I am never going to buy any super steel knifes again. Even with good equipment they can be difficult to figure out. Good luck deburring one of these bad boys.
I think i prefer simpler steel. I also like to hone, and i like a crisp fresh edges.
 
I only have one knife i M390, and i have Vetrified diamond stones. I am never going to buy any super steel knifes again. Even with good equipment they can be difficult to figure out. Good luck deburring one of these bad boys.
I think i prefer simpler steel. I also like to hone, and i like a crisp fresh edges.


Blimey! Interesting that even with diamond that kind of thing is still a bit of a nightmare. As you say - it seemed not to form or deburr in any comparable to more traditional knifemaking steels. I didn't tell the producer, but I hated it. Maybe I could see a use on a folding or fixed blade type knife, but on a kitchen knife it really wasn't for me.

I think I was the first person on that passaround too, so I assume I received the knife with as good an edge as they could put on it. And it was way short of what I can get on Hitachi paper steels.



(Apologies for the thread diversion OP. None of this probably has any relevance to razors by the sound of it.)
 
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Sorry I’ve been slow coming back to this. I have learned quite a bit already. I clearly had a false impression of how many vintage strops were pasted. Do you really not find a chalked strop to be a little abrasive? I use the dovo chalk paste on one of my cotton strops, I would never put it on real linen.

I started with a straight because i had an amazing straight shave from a barber in Sheffield, found some vintage straights in a shop, had them sharpened on synths by a decent honer, enjoyed my shaves, bled a bit, was gifted a coticule, tried sharpening with that, tugged, pulled and bled. Hatzicho sharpened up two of my razors on a coti and a thuri and I had great shaves and a reference point. Collected a few of both stones and a few varied synths, can now get very comfy dfs shaves from most of my coticules(hatzicho edge is long gone, but I think it was still better than mine), haven’t got the hang of thuris or synths at all. I’m just about to play with chromox for the first time since learning to hone at all, I certainly meant no criticism of any way of sharpening. My question came from my bias of loving the stones so much that I’ve just ignored pastes and lapping films and all the much more intelligent ways for a beginner to learn to hone and thrown myself at the natural stones.

If I wanted to save money, a double edge, shark super chrome blades, semogue boar, palmolive cream, proraso green aftershave. Simple, excellent shaves.

Honing my 8/8 Koraat near wedge on my favourite coticule, Neil Miller cotton with chalk, westholme latigo followed by kanayama shell, same brush, same aftershave, Klar soap. The opposite of cheap and cheerful. But a very fun hobby.
 
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