Do I need magnification?

[weirdohappy]

Is it possible to learn to hone without using magnification? I have been trying to hone an old blade I picked up at a flea market and am getting a little frustrated . I'm wondering if I need some kind of magnification to look and see what's going on down there. I watched the youtube video sticky'd to this thread, and have been using the thumb pad test, nail test and trying to do a hair test.

Thumb nail test - can feel the blade drag across nail, not slide. There is an amount of resistance however no marks left and no visible digging in.

Thumb pad test - I have slices on my thumb but requires some pressure.

Hair - I can shave the back of my hand OK with it. Can not cut hanging hair.

I'm using a norton 4/8 and have made 200 or so passes on the 4k side and 100 or so on the 8k checking every 20-30 passes to see if it's getting any better. Does anyone have any ideas? Am I over honing? Since I'm using a 4k it it just slow going? Should I take it, since it does shave some and run it on a strop for a while and see if the edge gets better? Thanks!

 

[professorchaos]

Magnification can help figure out what is going on, but it isn't an instant answer. A 20X loupe is really all you need.

 

[Ray-man]

If this is your first time, those tests won't mean much to you. It seems like you haven't set the bevel yet. Take a magic marker and mark the edge with it. Make sure it is dry and do 1 lap on the 4k stone. Look at the mark and see what was removed. You should see just the edge gone and all the way from one end to the other. This test should be done slowly too. Maybe 2sec. per stroke. After you determine what is or isn't being removed, adjust your stroke to remove everything along the complete edge on both sides. Aain, do this very slowly. When you think you have it, stop, mark the edge and try it again.
At this point, a magnifier isn't going to do you much of anything. You won't have a clue what you are looking for. When you do want to get a magnifier, go to Radio Shack and get either a loop or the battery microscope. Both are cheap and both will work for what you need them to do. That is find chips or microchipping.
Remember to hone slowly, maybe 1sec for each stroke. This is not a race. Check the edge often with the marker, and when the complete edge off the 4k stone will pop hair on your arm or leg at the base, then it is time to start doing pyramids.

Get back to us with your progress and questions.

Ray

 

[gary haywood]

I always use marker you will probably find the whole edge is'nt making contact i use 30k loop to check for chips and to get a closer look at the bevel 30k loop does come in handy

 

[avatar1999]

You can learn without any magnification, but it DOES help quite a bit at first, especially to make sure you're getting out the hone marks from the previous stone.

IME, I used the mini RadioShack 100x microscope a good bit when I first started honing razors, but now, I found the tests that work for me, and only rarely use the scope anymore.

 

[turbine712]

+1 on the magic marker. I use it every time I hone a blade. It is especially important when you set your bevel. It cannot be stressed enough to make sure your bevel is set properly otherwise all your work is for naught. The thumb nail test should be used up to 4k (correct me if I'm wrong) but when you start at 4k do not use the nail test. Just use the thumb pad and then try to pop hairs. After you are good and happy with your 4k then the rest is polishing your edge. If by chance your finding that the blade starts to feel dull, then you may want to look at using a pyramid system to get your blade back on track.
Magnifacation is nice however you don't need to go high buck for a microscope.
I saw a real cool gizmo at ShopCo that is a kids microscope that plugs into your TV and I believe your computer also and goes up I think to 100X. It was like under 40 bucks. I will see if I can find it and post the link.

 

[turbine712]

Found it!!!!! 200X kids toy.

http://www.gizmosforgeeks.com/2009/...c-eye-200x-microscope-plugs-into-your-tv/5332

 

[huntmol]

I got a 30x jewler's loupe off eBay for $1 w/ free shipping - as far as I'm concerned, I don't need to spend any more on magnification than that!

 

[mparker762]

As the others have said it really helps when you start out. Just remember that you really can't see sharpness in a normal microscope, you need a really $$$ good optical scope for that. What a cheap scope can show you are several of the problems that can impede sharpness, like microchips, poorly formed bevel, etc.

After awhile you can look at the reflection off the edge and see most of the stuff that a 100x-200x microscope will tell you. Microchips look like a dotted line along the edge, bad bevels show up as multiple reflections, etc.

 

[GsSixgun]

I'm using a norton 4/8 and have made 200 or so passes on the 4k side and 100 or so on the 8k checking every 20-30 passes to see if it's getting any better. Does anyone have any ideas? Am I over honing? Since I'm using a 4k it it just slow going? Should I take it, since it does shave some and run it on a strop for a while and see if the edge gets better? Thanks!

That is a ton of honing....

First dumb question, what kind of razor is this ????
What condition did it start in???
What type of stoke are you doing???


As you have already heard Microscopes do help, but are not necesasary... I use a 40x loupe myself...

 

[weirdohappy]

Thanks for all the advice. I haven't had a chance to get back online since I've done the following. The blade I was referring to at the beginning I just set down. It's an old blade. (I'll post pics when I get back to it) I believe it is a wedge. That may be why It's taking forever. I tried the marker test on and saw some problem areas. I just think it's so bad off I'll need to use a coarser grit on it. I will also look at purchasing a scope to see what's going on.

In the frustration of seemingly getting no where, I pulled out a Genco Henry's X I bought a while back that needed some TLC. I polished off the blade a bit (it had some rust spots which masked what now turns out to be pitting) and ran it on the 4k side until (as you guys advised) I could pop hair from any spot on the blade at the skin and in the air. I then ran it on the 8k side for 50 complete passes, back on the 4k side for 25 and once again on the 8k for 20. I stropped on the rough (pasted) side 100 passes (maybe excessive) and the smooth side for 50, and ran it up my arm. Super smooth shave. So I would say success on it. I will shave with it tomorrow and see how it goes. Thanks for all the advice as this blade went from completely dull to shave ready using what you guys suggested.

Now. How do I get the pitting out of the blade? I wanted to make sure it would take an edge and everything before I went into getting it pretty. It has a semi mirror gloss with just the light polishing I did on it, but where the rust spots were (only on one side) there is noticable pitting. Here are some pictures, the pitting can be seen towards the end of the blade: (not sure if these photo's work )

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/ind...ID=168838261&albumID=1986803&imageID=33746895

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/ind...ID=168838261&albumID=1986803&imageID=33746859

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/ind...ID=168838261&albumID=1986803&imageID=33747054

Once again, thanks for the advice so far!!

 

[cityjim]

Is it possible to learn to hone without using magnification? I have been trying to hone an old blade I picked up at a flea market and am getting a little frustrated . I'm wondering if I need some kind of magnification to look and see what's going on down there. I watched the youtube video sticky'd to this thread, and have been using the thumb pad test, nail test and trying to do a hair test.

Thumb nail test - can feel the blade drag across nail, not slide. There is an amount of resistance however no marks left and no visible digging in.

Thumb pad test - I have slices on my thumb but requires some pressure.

Hair - I can shave the back of my hand OK with it. Can not cut hanging hair.

I'm using a norton 4/8 and have made 200 or so passes on the 4k side and 100 or so on the 8k checking every 20-30 passes to see if it's getting any better. Does anyone have any ideas? Am I over honing? Since I'm using a 4k it it just slow going? Should I take it, since it does shave some and run it on a strop for a while and see if the edge gets better? Thanks!

Sounds like massive over honing . I would bread knife that blade and start all over .

There is no set ammount of strokes in honing . Many different steel types and so on . In honing less or more . The bevel on a straight is what like 1/16" or so depending on the blade . The actual cutting edge is like 1 micron . As you might see there is no need to do 200 strokes . All you are doing is eating up the blade width .

Try something in the 600 ANSI grit like a soft Arkansas . Cut the bevel all over again and see if it shaves arm hair . Do two strokes per side till the stroke smooths out . When arm hairs are cutting go to a 1000 grit ANSI stone . Listen to the blade as you polish the edge . It will be semi rough at first on your strokes . Then a couple strokes you will feel it smooth out . Stop there ......... Go up to a higher grit hone next and repeat .


cityjim