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Denser brushes, lathering issues?

Hi all, been DE shaving for the past 6 weeks or so, and been getting quite decent at getting a workable lather using some of the tips/techniques found on here, smooth, rich and no skipping issues. Started out with an EJ BBB and moved on to a Frank Shaving Finest after that, preferring the ergonomics on the handle and the stiffer backbone.

Recently I've acquired a Shavemac D01 (thanks Bob!) and it definitely takes more product and effort to load properly, spending maybe 40% more time loading the brush compared to the EJ BBB / FS Finest. The issue I'm having is that my first two brushes would (with less loading) provide lather enough for 4-5 passes and perhaps even more, and that lather would be just as usable in the 4th pass as it was in the 1st. My first attempt with the D01 netted lather that was too thin due to the brush being insufficiently loaded and not being able to release properly, loaded it up further and whipped up a thicker more usable batch but even so by the 3rd pass the lather was causing more skipping, and had to load up yet again!

Now the thing is in the last few weeks of reading, there have been a myriad of adjectives thrown around for the more premium brushes, basically explaining how much more luxurious it is etc. Here's my question: when held in my hand and running my fingers through the hairs the D01 is undeniably the most dense, and has the softest tips by far. However when the brushes are in use and saturated by thick lather - it honestly feels by and large the same, especially when utilising a painting stroke. There is a minor difference in feel when applied initially in a circular fashion, but otherwise I'd be hard pressed to tell the difference. The denser brush also needs far more product in order to generate usable lather and release it properly, lather quality is similar when done properly.

Is there a crucial step I'm missing somewhere? some hidden technique I need in order to utilize the brush to its full potential? The D01 seems to be able to generate lather quicker when loaded properly, but it doesn't seem to hold its quality from pass to pass. Even with the proper technique, is the denser brush worth the extra time loading etc. if the lather quality in the end is similar and the feel on the face (to me) isn't all that different? Any advice is greatly appreciated, thanks everyone!
 
How long has it had to break in?

Also, I find that I like a "slippy" lather over a super thick one and I use a duke 2, a middle of the road dense brush, and it could use a little water..

What are the specs on the brush?
 
How long has it had to break in?

Also, I find that I like a "slippy" lather over a super thick one and I use a duke 2, a middle of the road dense brush, and it could use a little water..

What are the specs on the brush?

I'm the second owner, not 100% sure on its previous use but I'm assuming its been used enough to be broken in, will PM its previous owner to find out for sure. I'm with you on the "slippy" lather, but once I loaded up the brush again briefly on the puck, added some water etc etc, it stopped skipping. I tried adding additional water to the mix at first thinking it might be too dry, but that ended up just thinning the mixture further, made the skipping even worse.

Specs are 20mm x 48mm in D01 3 band
 
Dense brushes can take time to break in. My Rooney 3/1/F was used, and it was great from day 1. But my CH-1/2S at first resembled a pencil eraser more closely than a shave brush. After a month or two in rotation it became a great brush for face lathering. Maybe the first owner of your brush didn't give it enough time?

The prolonged soaks recommended in http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=139297 might help. I didn't try that technique with the CH-1/2S, but I would be interested in your experience.
 
Dense brushes can take time to break in. My Rooney 3/1/F was used, and it was great from day 1. But my CH-1/2S at first resembled a pencil eraser more closely than a shave brush. After a month or two in rotation it became a great brush for face lathering. Maybe the first owner of your brush didn't give it enough time?

The prolonged soaks recommended in http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=139297 might help. I didn't try that technique with the CH-1/2S, but I would be interested in your experience.

To be honest this would be my first premium brush of this density, so I wouldn't be able to tell with any certainty if the brush was properly broken in. How exactly would it change over time? Ease of latherability? Softer tips?

I've actually used that method on the FS brush when I first got it, and now on a Rudy Vey Custom with a TGN Finest knot, and while I can understand how soaking it in a fragrant soap / cream would help saturate the original badger smell, but I'm not entirely convinced it softens the tips or aids the breaking in process to any appreciable degree.
 
The main change I observed in my CH-1/2S was that it bloomed out more over time. This made it easier to splay, and easier to open up the breach. In the beginning I could generate a good lather, but the knot would only hold enough for two passes. Now it holds enough for at least four passes, maybe five. I think that's because the knot has bloomed, allowing the soap and water to reach more of the hair.

If you decide to try more break-in time for the D01, one option is use it for a daily practice lather. You could use a cheap soap for this. When I was learning to make lather I got into the habit of doing this every evening before bed, and using the lather to wash my face. Now I use that same habit to break in new brushes.
 
The main change I observed in my CH-1/2S was that it bloomed out more over time. This made it easier to splay, and easier to open up the breach. In the beginning I could generate a good lather, but the knot would only hold enough for two passes. Now it holds enough for at least four passes, maybe five. I think that's because the knot has bloomed, allowing the soap and water to reach more of the hair.

If you decide to try more break-in time for the D01, one option is use it for a daily practice lather. You could use a cheap soap for this. When I was learning to make lather I got into the habit of doing this every evening before bed, and using the lather to wash my face. Now I use that same habit to break in new brushes.

That's exactly the issue I'm having currently, after 2 passes the lather becomes pretty unusable. The previous owner just got back to me and he's used it about maybe a dozen times prior, so I'd say its only seen about 14 uses so far, sooo definitely needs more time to break in :001_smile

Thats a great suggestion, and would help me hone my technique also. Would there be any issue with the brush being damp all the time though? I find it takes slightly longer to dry being so dense. Some members on here advocate letting the brush dry fully between uses, any opinions?
 
Yeah the dense brushes are very discouraging at first, you say to yourself why did i spend so much money on this? But i urge you to give it time to break in thoroughly. I had a chubby 1 that i dismissed as being subpar, but come to find out i just didnt give it enough time. With a couple of my brushes i set aside a month to just use it, like my new simpson tulip 2-band and my shavemac d01 2-band. They really are stingy till you beat em up for a lil bit, then the change is striking once they start to break in. be patient and get to lathering, its very worth it IMHO.
 
Something I use with my dense brushes (D01's, Chubby, etc) is using deep paint brush strokes to load up the entity of the side of the bristles. Mixing in strokes almost using the side of the brush will help cycle lather into the base of the hairs and saturate more of the brush. When I do this I get more lather than if I only use swirls with the tips.

That said I still cant figure out my TGN 30mm by 50mm Silvertip Grade A. It is dense and short, and more difficult to lather with than my other dense brushes. I have never had this problem before, but I think time and use will make a difference. I got my D01's and Chubbys to work out of the box, but I could have just been lucky.
 
Would there be any issue with the brush being damp all the time though? I find it takes slightly longer to dry being so dense. Some members on here advocate letting the brush dry fully between uses, any opinions?

Yes, I also let my brushes dry out fully between uses. I don't have any scientific basis for it, but I use it to justify a three-brush rotation, separate from any brushes that I am trying to break in. The only exception is the Omega 10066 that I use as a travel brush: I really don't want to pack multiple brushes, and I don't much care if I ruin a $10 brush.

If the D01 doesn't seem to dry out between those break-in lathers, you might try storing it somewhere outside the bathroom. When I am trying to dry out a dense brush, I leave it in a sunny, well-ventilated area, out of reach of children and pets.
 
I forgot to mention that if you use the deep pain brush strokes make sure to rotate the brush to cover all sides of it. This will work lather into the knot from all angles and again get lather into all the nooks and crannys.

As for drying, I have read that if you dont let a brush dry out 100% between uses you run the risk of letting mildew grow in it. I let my brushes dry over night on a stand on my cabinet and all but my Chubby 3 three band dry in less than 24 hours. The monster Chubby seems to take closer to 30 to dry out in its center, but it has to be well over 30mm wide and is by far my most dense brush.
 

Luc

"To Wiki or Not To Wiki, That's The Question".
Staff member
I wouldn't think that a 20mm knot would retain that much lather. That's what I use and I don't have to squeeze my lather out.

If it's second hand, chances are that it's broken already. Unless it was used 3 times and then sold... Using another brush is like changing cars, you will need to work with it a bit more at first to get better results in the long run. I think the advices provided above are good.
 
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