Ok so first off I want to say I'm a fan of DG soaps as far as performance goes they are up there in my top 5 but is anyone else feeling like their fragrances are not up to the same level to match the shaving performance of the soap? I really like their Pure Lavender and TSM Fougere as I think they did a good job with them but for me there are other Fougere and lavender's that I like a little more to be honest like MDC or SV for example. I kind of like Bandwagon but it doesn't stand out as a barbershop compared to others in that category. I also have Gratiot League which is just ok for me and I just got 4th and Pine and the Colonia Balsamica. I didn't like either one at all. I thought in the description that the 4th and pine was going to be a nice summer citrus and to me I get some citrus but there is a underlying note that smells kind of funky to be honest and the same with the matching CL AS which I also ordered I was hoping the Colonia had a nice Italian fresh clean scent like some of the SV soaps have for example but I got this cheap cologne scent that really wasn't even close and I sent that back before I even used it. I have the same issue with T&S. Good soap but their fragrances just don't seem to match up to the quality of their soaps.. I'm I alone on an island here. I've been developing personal care products for over 25 yrs and I'm a a collector of fine fragrance ( colognes ) a admittedly somewhat of a bit of a fragrance snob so am I being to critical here or do others feel the same way. I want to be clear I really like the performance of DG soaps but for me most of their fragrances could be improved to match their performance and they'd have a real winner of a line up. And I'll note they are not the only soap company that I'm being critical of. Another example I just got a new release from Ariana & Evans the name really hit home as it's called Summer Fig! I couldn't wait till it got here and I opened the AS first which was a bad mistake as I can't return it and then I opened the soap and again a very synthetic fig scent with some other cheap cologne after notes and a big disappointment. In my mind I was thinking Aqua Di Parma Fico Di Amalfi or Diptyque's Philosykos where the fig clearly makes a statement and is not overpowered by the synthetics in the cologne like in the A&E I think one of the issues these days is soap manufactures are trying to develop way to complex fragrances and I'll be honest a soap base is not the perfect format for that. It's not anywhere near the environment of say developing a fine cologne or even a liquid body wash or shampoo. I've been leaning towards soaps where they use 1,2 maybe even 3 scents or in the case of the ones who nail it with great complex scents. Maybe I"m alone in my thinking and opinon but I thought I'd share them for whatever it's worth.
Declaration Grooming scents... is it just me?
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The same thing happens with Phoenix & Beau. Stellar performance but the scents are heavy, complex in a bad way. Your nose is confused.
Interesting post @Dragonsbeard. I view Declaration Grooming like most other soap makers - there are some hits and misses. I agree the performance is top notch, so I am just talking about scent, as were you. I think Y/R/P, Rose Santal, and Darkfall are some of the best smelling soaps around.
One thing to keep in mind is that these artisans are skilled soap makers, and in most cases, skilled at formulated great scents, but they are most likely not professionally trained in Grasse. I wouldn't expect an A&E soap to smell as good as Philosykos. That may also be a function of how scents perform in a soap base. I'm sure that is challenging for a soap maker. Personally, I appreciate straight forward smelling soaps and also the more complex ones. I am glad there are artisans out there that are pushing the envelope in terms of scent complexity.
One thing to keep in mind is that these artisans are skilled soap makers, and in most cases, skilled at formulated great scents, but they are most likely not professionally trained in Grasse. I wouldn't expect an A&E soap to smell as good as Philosykos. That may also be a function of how scents perform in a soap base. I'm sure that is challenging for a soap maker. Personally, I appreciate straight forward smelling soaps and also the more complex ones. I am glad there are artisans out there that are pushing the envelope in terms of scent complexity.
I'd like to see some simpler scents from all the top soaps as well.
Very good points and I have to sample the soaps you mentioned. I won't mention names but I was in contact with an artisan soap maker and I mentioned scents and I learned that they don't work with professional fragrance houses who BTW do all your R&D for free. Obviously hoping you'll be purchasing their fragrance for your products for a very long time. The process is send them your un-fragranced base with the formula so they can make sure there are not conflicting ingredients such as amides which by themselves smell like fish. Then the fragrance house with offer a solution or create a masking fragrance and then build the desired fragrance your looking for until it's just were you want it. It's a back and forth thing and I've been through it many times. Also many of the master perfumers that are in house at some of the better fragrance houses are trained in Grasse so you have their expertise to help achieve your desired scent. It's also about stability and shelve life. If a product is not properly fragranced not only can the products scent deteriorate over time but it can start to interact with the container its in like plastic which is the more acceptable to that reaction as opposed to glass or aluminum container especially if your dealing with natural or essential oils. I completely agree with you and I also commend all the artisan for pushing the envelope in developing complex scents and some seem to be nailing it and again I think you are probably right in your hit and miss statement but if they follow the process or protocol I was mentioning theres a better chance for success in both a achieving a great smelling end product buy knowing it will last over time on the shelve or exposed to either extreme heat or cold.
One of the reasons I think samples are very important as I'd like to try a scent before a full purchase like I did with the A&E soap.
Thanks for the comments and input!
Thanks for your insights! With your trained nose being able to pick out 40 scents, could you give us some examples of the artisans who are "nailing it" in your opinion?
I have been burned one too many times and have given up on soaps with fragrance. I'm only buying unscented soaps. My shave lasts about 10 minutes, and while it's always nice to enjoy something you like, I can wait the ten minutes and apply a cologne with beautiful, complex fragrance.
I could understand wanting stronger scents, but it is my understanding that some of these soap makers got into this due to sensitive skin and keep the scents light for that reason.
I try to do my homework when making a purchase because I don’t want a huge den, so I always pay attention to scent strength in reviews.
I haven’t tried any of the soap you mentioned because the are on the high side but I would want a stronger scent when I get into that price range.
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I try to do my homework when making a purchase because I don’t want a huge den, so I always pay attention to scent strength in reviews.
I haven’t tried any of the soap you mentioned because the are on the high side but I would want a stronger scent when I get into that price range.
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No rant in any case! This example you gave with the Lavender is exactly my thoughts. Can an artisan soap maker give a complex scent that does not disturb the nose of the wet shaver? Ok then he can proceed with that. He cannot? He should make a more simple straight forward scent with ONE main ingredient e.g Lavender and keep it simple.Yes so I'm not the only one!
Like I mentioned I've been developing products for a long time and dealing with many fragrance houses and working with fragrances in products. Also a hobby of mine and I've got my nose where I can smell about 40 different scents without loosing my nose. Just to compare the average person can only smell 7 before they loose it and a master perfumer can smell more than 300 or more which is kind of mind blowing coming from where I'm at. Like I said either do it right if your doing a complex scent or stick to keeping it simple using high quality ingredients. Example if I'm looking for a Lavender I want just that and not a synthetic version of Lavender or a complexity of many other notes piled on top or below the Lavender. Again that may be just me and sorry for the rant!
Btw I love Razorock scents especially the Emperor, very convincing smell to my nose. But it does not last.
I have never tried DG soaps. I know a lot of people share your opinion about Tallow and Steel.
I got a sampler of Wholly Kaw and was mostly disappointed in their scents.
Of all the artisans, I think the ones whose scents are most predictably nice/well thought out/well composed are Mystic Water and Cold River Soap Works. Generally, I prefer simpler scents but not always.
I got a sampler of Wholly Kaw and was mostly disappointed in their scents.
Of all the artisans, I think the ones whose scents are most predictably nice/well thought out/well composed are Mystic Water and Cold River Soap Works. Generally, I prefer simpler scents but not always.
Finding a great performing soap with a scent that I like is a bonus, but to be frank it's not that big of a deal unless it's smells like the locker room in the movie Porky's. I can put up with a not so terrific scent if the soap has what I think is good in other areas. I've got both the Bon Vivant and the Cuir et Epices. The Bon Vivant I was not thrilled with at all at first, very strong complex scent. Now I kind of like it for some reason. The Cuir et Epices smells like John Wayne's kitchen at Thanksgiving...leather and baked goods. I love it.
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As to the thoughts expressed by @Dragonsbeard, some of the WK scents exemplify both sides of the problem. Chypre Rose Concerto seems overly complex while Lav Sublime is simple and yes, sublime.
For my nose, Declaration Grooming has one really outstanding scent, Yuzu/Rose/Patchouli that it does in collaboration with Chatillon Lux, and another very nice scent in Trisgemistus. I also own Gratiot League Square and TSM Fougere--I like both but they are not on the same level to my nose as the other two. YRP is simple and very straightforward.
Wholly Kaw also has one really outstanding scent in Lav Sublime. Again simple and straightforward. I also own full tubs of Chypre Rose Concerto, Cuero Oscuro, King of Oud and Bare Naked.
Tallow & Steel just introduced a product that I really like--Sicily. The scent is outstanding with citrus, lavender, and rosemary. Less simple but very satisfying. I also own Kyoto but have not yet tried it.
In summary, DG's YRP, WK's Lav Sublime and T&S's Sicily all have outstanding scents to my nose. This begs the question what do they have in common aside from simplicity and straightforwardness. It has to be citrus and, to a lesser extent lavender, though I do not believe lavender is present in YRP.
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It's subjective thing as you know, but no, you're not the only one.
I had two shaves with Trismegistus and was so disappointed by the scent, I just couldn't make myself use it again. If I had to describe it, something I'm not very good at, to me, it lacked the refinement, it reminded me of strong "in your face" smelling citrus laundry detergent. Harsh perhaps, and as usual, YMMV disclaimer, but I did not like it at all.
Didn't find anything wrong with the soap's performance, but didn't find it to stand out big time either. With the market what it is these days, I quickly moved on and haven't looked back.
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I’d consider Lav Sublime and the new Grapefruit....both in the donkey milk base from WhollyKaw
The new Sicily from Tallow+Steel.
So, you want a professional to do the fragrance for the soap makers when the scent only lasts during the shave? I never really understood why people go on and on about shaving soap scents when they don't last past the shave itself. I thought if you wanted a lingering scent you would just use the cologne of your choice. Personally I like most of the soap scents you mentioned not liking and I'm also someone who buys matching aftershave for all my soaps, but even then it's usually gone or close enough to a skin scent within a couple of hours. I would hate to see how much a tub of soap would cost if it included top of the line fragrance oils formulated by a professional...... oh wait isn't that what Chiseled Face/Zoologist is at almost $40 a tub, no thanks.
I would think that if this was the case they would already be out of business, but the vendor you mentioned sells out of everything pretty darned fast, so maybe there are a lot of folks out there who do like the scents. You are never going to be able to please everyone and I'm fairly certain the soaps with polarizing scents are liked by enough people to keep at it.
It's a funny world. Most of the soaps that I see complained about here are the soaps that are raved about on the many Facebook shaving groups out there with quite large memberships.
Why not ? I know it's only 5+ minutes, but why not make them more enjoyable if you can afford to.
There are plenty of studies on effect on scents on human mood, emotions, memories... etc.
For me at least, I'll take a slight hit on performance if the scent hits all the right "notes".
I don't personally care for scent to linger, in fact I hope it doesn't, it's just that the experience is that much better when you have a scent that you love. I actually look forward to using them based purely on scent since there are so many amazing performing soaps and creams out there, and lots are really close in performance.
How much are you willing to pay for that? $40 a tub? Are they still considered artisans if they are using scents that are formulated by a large fragrance house? Most if not all the artisan soap makers still have day jobs and are doing this on the side.
What the OP was asking for is exactly what Scott at DG has done by having Shawn at Chatillon Lux build the fragrance and then ship it to him to add to the soap base.
Yes, I have in the past and will again pay extra for a product I consider worthy, and for me scent plays a huge part of the equation. It doesn't matter to me if the extra cost is due to using fragrance designers or has to do more with use of essential oils, paraben free formulas, consistency, reputation and me wanting to buy that product again.
Scent is highly subjective of course, no soap maker will please everyone with a single scent, that's impossible. Hit with some, might be a total miss with others. Some I didn't like but would try another scent from the same maker if I liked the performance and Declaration Grooming is one of those.
Point I'm trying to make is, it doesn't matter who or how makes the soap, big company, artisan, part time stay at home mom.....whatever. At the end of the day it has to make me want to buy it at asking price. For me, scent plays a big role in that, for others, it's less relevant and that's perfectly fine. I was just trying to explain why nice scent in a shaving soap/cream matters to me - no more derailing the thread.
First let me say that I am a huge fan of the DG - CL collaboration products and own a bunch of them, so this is not at all a knock of those 2 great producers.
I do believe however that Dragonsbeard has made some interesting observation(s) and I quoted the above portion since I had a somewhat similar reaction to the 4th & Pine. I absolutely loved the citrusy refreshing aspect of the CL products but found initial uses of this particular DG soap a bit "off."
Since this made little sense to me I went off to research the elements of the underlying scent note components (incl. Neroli, bergamot, lavender, orange, petitgrain, grapefruit, and yuzu). Come to discover that some descriptors of pettigrain are "greenish, woodsy, leaves"; and sub notes of yuzu include an "oakmoss" in base that can bring to mind "bitter, forest floor, dirt, hay, manure."
Ergo, I concluded that I just had a tub that mixed a lot more pettigrain and oakmoss than I expected (or that I grabbed a few scoops where those parts had concentrated in the tub). I plan to continue using my soap and am willing to "bring in da funk", partly because I just love the A/S product and am optimistic that I may uncover more citrusy concentration somewhere in the soap tub
In any event I think jdp93 captures the essence of it, opining that all these artisans are likely to have hits and misses; and I certainly agree with him that Y/R/P is stellar.
Hey, I wouldn't have a problem paying for it either, but I'm not sure everyone feels that way. I think you'll see Grooming Dept. going with some form of the route you talk about. I know he has been spending a lot of time researching all the niche fragrances out there.
