What's new

DE razor geometry. A system for measuring aggressive razors.

I have reviewed what The B & Bers have said they believe are the most important factors in grading a aggressive razors. There is also a fair amount written about it. I have read two articles that Mantic59 wrote
  • In Mantic59’s older article what is the most aggressive DE razor? written in 2017 he touches upon the following factors as being important in razor design.

  • Blade gap: Duh this is the measurement that got me into this mess.
  • Blade exposure: Also, first brought up by South Dakota Guy.
  • Weight: Also, first brought up by Tamahagane
  • Balance: Only mentioned in Mantic59’s article.
Mantic59 has a newer article written in 2018 updated 2020 called How much razor aggressiveness do you really need?


The following attributes he touches on are.

  • Blade edge exposure: which is the same as Blade exposure.
  • Blade bar span: Which is a variation on the blade gap measurement but Mantic59 seems to think this is a better measurement than Blade gap for determining aggressiveness.
  • Safety bar design: Matic59 touches on Teeth gap on open comb razors and scallop gaps on closed comb razors. Also first brought up by JPO and Tamahagane.
In the article Mantic59 touches on the width of the teeth gaps and scallops gaps.

The wider the gap the more aggressive the razor. Round bar guards found on plastic DE razors and Gillette tech razors will lay down the hair more than razors with teeth or scallops.

The other attribute that was also mentioned (first by jeffmudrick) is how ridged the blade by how the razor clamps the blade. I am still trying too understand this. Will a rigid blade make the razor more aggressive? I think a more rigid blade will make the razor more predictable therefore a better shaver. Which is also a good to know.


With this feed back I want to propose a razor measuring system. I will use the Merkur 34C. as an example. This is how I’m thinking of recording the measurements.

  • Blade exposure: This is nearly impossible to measure, and the manufacturers don’t really publish them. This will be expressed with a P for positive blade edge exposure. A 0 (zero) and a N for negative. If the blade exposure is extreme I would use P+ and N-. I would use a close up picture of the razor loaded with a blade and draw a line to represent the shave plane. I would than observe where the edge of the blade falls on the shave plane.
  • Blade gap: This would be measured with a feeler gauge and be expressed in millimeters.
  • The safety bar: The teeth gap or scallops would be measured with a caliper and expressed in millimeters. If it is a solid bar will be noted as a solid bar.
  • Weight: the razor will be weighed in grams.
  • Blade rigidity or method of clamping. I’m not sure how to measure this. I would like some assistance with this.
With these metrics in place the Merkur 34C would be a (drum role please).



0/.71/1.2 scallops/77g/M (Medium blade rigidity)?



Please consider this exercise a rough draft and subject to change or even the scrap heap.



On a side note I found a blade measurement table in the wikis. Double-Edge (DE) Razor Blade Dimensions Table - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/wiki/Double-Edge_DE_Razor_Blade_Dimensions_Table

The Kai blade is ever so slightly wider. It would make any razor ever so slightly more aggressive.
Blade rigidity can be based on simple elastic beam theory. you could adjust for blade size and thickness. More complex clamping systems would involve finite element computer simulations.
Making sense of the numbers is more difficult. I am a structural engineer, so setting up the calculation is one thing, but i would need the measurements.
 

Esox

I didnt know
Staff member
Exactly my DE experience as well. The trouble is, when inventing a measuring system, what is the best approach for classification? For instance, "aggressiveness class 5 for wet shavers with buffalo skin" or "aggressiveness value of 3.14 for average skin"? I think the "why"* part is purely subjective based on skin and preferences, while the "how much aggression" is objectively measurable. E.g. Merkur 15C = Rockwell 6S R3, Merkur 15C > Rockwell 6S R2, Merkur 15C < Rockwell 6S R4 etc.

* note by 'why' I mean why this and that design works (poorly) for me

I think the easiest way would be a three class system. Minimal blade support, moderate blade support and full blade support. Thats how I personally see the different designs anyway. How anyone else might see them, especially in use, is a completely different story.
 
I think the easiest way would be a three class system. Minimal blade support, moderate blade support and full blade support. Thats how I personally see the different designs anyway. How anyone else might see them, especially in use, is a completely different story.
I like that. Do you have an example. I'm thinking Old type would be full support and Muhle 41 would be minimal.
 
I seem to remember Grant @ShavingByTheNumbers and possibly Cal @Cal mentioning something along those lines and it may, or may not, already be in the Wiki.

Hey, Mike. It's been a while. Thanks for the tag. Here is where we left off in developing the proposed safety razor survey:

 
Muhle R41 has minimal support? LOL. There is no greater mystery in my shaving world than how the Wardonia manages my ATG head shave at all, let alone magnificently given its almost complete lack of blade support. Let the mystery be the songwriter wrote.

Theories welcome.

proxy.php



proxy.php



Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk
 

Esox

I didnt know
Staff member
I like that. Do you have an example. I'm thinking Old type would be full support and Muhle 41 would be minimal.

I think the Old Type certainly qualifies as an extremely rigid design but the R41 would lean well into the moderate range I think, assuming its not all bent and twisted out of shape like mine.


Hey, Mike. It's been a while. Thanks for the tag. Here is where we left off in developing the proposed safety razor survey:


Thanks Grant. I knew there was something somewhere.


The Wardonia mentioned by @jeffmudrick above instantly came to mind as one of the least supported designs but those that use them, love them.

There are so many different designs and copies of designs that are only slightly different from others that its a bit mind boggling. The EJ/Merkur design compared to the Rockwell design for example.

EJ DE89 left, Rockwell right.

de89 support points.jpg Rockwell.Support.Points.jpg

Basically the same design but the support points on the Rockwell, I assume from the picture, are further apart. That would make a difference. I guess it depends how precisely different razors are compared.

I think the easiest way to grasp the idea is to study as many different designs as possible because you can see the different levels of baseplate support, try the different designs and see which works the best. Thats how I came to my own conclusions.
 
Agree, but you would then need to buy many razors. There should be a razor pool, with different razors for people to try out, like the coticule vault at coticule.be:)
 

Esox

I didnt know
Staff member
I would like to know how any human could safely shave with a straight having both infinite blade gap and exposure.

Blade stability. Assuming the hand holding it is stable enough, which mine rarely is haha. Straight razor blades are far thicker than the ~.004" DE blades and even the finest grinds would take far more pressure to flex.
 

Esox

I didnt know
Staff member
Agree, but you would then need to buy many razors. There should be a razor pool, with different razors for people to try out, like the coticule vault at coticule.be:)

You might not need to try many. I started with a made in England 1950s Gillette Flare Tip Rocket, which is still think is one of the best razors ever made. Then I went to a Gillette New LC and had my problem. I tried a shim in that razor and the shim helped about 50%. That told me what I needed to know, I needed a more rigid design and I wanted more blade exposure.
 
Agree, but you would then need to buy many razors. There should be a razor pool, with different razors for people to try out, like the coticule vault at coticule.be:)
Here is the point I was trying to make. I believe as a person's technique i
I would like to know how any human could safely shave with a
I would like to know how any human could safely shave with a straight having both infinite blade gap and exposure.
Here is the point I was trying to make. I believe as a person's technique improves they are able to to use a more aggressive razor both safely and comfortably.
 

Esox

I didnt know
Staff member
I believe as a person's technique improves they are able to to use a more aggressive razor both safely and comfortably.

Not only that but when you get used to using something like an MMOC, it makes every previously used razor easier to use. I still believe the best teacher of technique is an unforgiving razor, but, I did have Nun's in school haha.
 

Iridian

Cool and slimy
I still believe the best teacher of technique is an unforgiving razor

I am not sure about nuns, but for shaving ... the R41 taught me shaving well. Made me find most other razors "damn mild"...
By now I am more going towards mid-aggressive. And had a revelation today, my Envoy stopped being harsh to me. Can't quite explain it (dramatically better shave), looking forward to try that again with the next shave.

Learning to shave with very mild razors might teach people only things like... pressing the cap deep into the flesh and that they CAN use pressure and get away with it... so yeah, an unforgiving razor is perhaps not bad.

What I like about the R41: It gives clear indication BEFORE it is about to bite and thus gives people a chance to avoid injury.
 

Esox

I didnt know
Staff member
I am not sure about nuns, but for shaving ... the R41 taught me shaving well. Made me find most other razors "damn mild"...
By now I am more going towards mid-aggressive. And had a revelation today, my Envoy stopped being harsh to me. Can't quite explain it (dramatically better shave), looking forward to try that again with the next shave.

Learning to shave with very mild razors might teach people only things like... pressing the cap deep into the flesh and that they CAN use pressure and get away with it... so yeah, an unforgiving razor is perhaps not bad.

What I like about the R41: It gives clear indication BEFORE it is about to bite and thus gives people a chance to avoid injury.

I can have a great shave with my R41, provided I use a fresh Feather blade. My go to DE blades are Polsilver and Derby Extra they both failed in my R41. It just allows the blade to flex too much unless I was to shave extremely slowly. A typical 3 pass shave with my Grande and a Derby Extra, or just a few minutes ago with my Slim on 7 and a Derby Extra, is finished in 3-5 minutes for a 12 hour BBS with my Grande. Maybe a 10 hour BBS today with my Slim.

I can match that shave in comfort and closeness with my R41 and a Feather blade but, it takes me 20 minutes.

My first shave my R41 and a Derby Extra, my first stroke actually, WTG on my right cheek, the razor skipped because of blade flex and the fact that my stroke was as fast as with my Grande. Using my Grande and a Derby Extra blade its one long, smooth stroke from the top of my cheek to the base of my neck. Using the R41 its 4 strokes to my jawline and 3-4 strokes to the bottom of my neck and each stroke is much slower.

I wanted, and still do want, the closest, smoothest, easiest and quickest shave I can have. The R41 will shave me close, the same 12 hour BBS as my Grande, but it takes seemingly forever and I need to be very careful when using it. Using a fresh Feather in my Grande is bliss. A very fast, very easy and confidence inspiring shave and I'm not even aware of the blade.

My R41 didnt warn me it was going to bite. It just jumped out like Cato in The Pink Panther and bit me lol.
 
Thing is that is not quite set among
the shaving community what exactly
is meant by the term “aggression “ of a razor.
 
Thing is that is not quite set among
the shaving community what exactly
is meant by the term “aggression “ of a razor.
According to Badger and blade wiki this is the definition.

What is aggressiveness?
The aggressiveness of a razor largely relies on 5 different factors.
  • Blade gap
  • Blade angle in the razor
  • Razor weight
  • Distribution of the weight. (Heavy head/light handle vs. all heavy.)
  • Blade angle applied by the user
The last point can influence the shave drastically if not done properly. A user shouldn't follow a quest to find the mildest or most aggressive razor. What a user should do is find the right level of aggressiveness for themselves.

I started this thread thinking of a system to rate or grade a razors aggressiveness. With the help of the members I have narrowed it down to four attributes.
1. Blade gap
2. Blade exposure.
3. Weight.
4 Blade rigidity.
Number four is the current debate and has been a bit squirrely to pin down. I haven't seen a practical way of measuring this. I would like a way of measuring this with out having to use a machine shop.
 
Personally I can not see any definition
about what is aggressiveness ,
but only the variables (factors)
the aggressiveness relies to
 
I also think it makes sense to aggree on a definition. The two most common definitions I have seen are
  1. level of comfort, but people who like aggressive razors disagree
  2. depth of the cut from each stroke, but some folks call this efficiency and believe it to be different from aggressiveness
 
Top Bottom