Damn Comfortable Shave

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

I've been back at the Double Convex Ark 8x3 hone. Just finished. Linen, horsehide, denim, horsehide (10, 25, 10, 35) stropping completed the sharpening process. No pastes or anything like that.

For what it's worth I enjoyed using the stone today, both sides of the stone.

I've posted elsewhere, link, that the lightbulb in my brain may finally have begun to shine. If so, my razor should be sharp and shave ready today. During all my previous efforts on the DCA I felt like I was clueless. Today, while honing, I felt like I knew what I was about, and had a plan, and understood what the mechanism and method were, and why. That doesn't mean I'm 100% certain on the edge's shave ready perfection nor does it mean that the electrician wired up the circuit correctly.

All it really means is it's time to do another shave test. Nothing else matters, right?

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Twelvefret]

I've been back at the Double Convex Ark 8x3 hone. Just finished. Linen, horsehide, denim, horsehide (10, 25, 10, 35) stropping completed the sharpening process. No pastes or anything like that.

For what it's worth I enjoyed using the stone today, both sides of the stone.

View attachment 975173

I've posted elsewhere, link, that the lightbulb in my brain may finally have begun to shine. If so, my razor should be sharp and shave ready today. During all my previous efforts on the DCA I felt like I was clueless. Today, while honing, I felt like I knew what I was about, and had a plan, and understood what the mechanism and method were, and why. That doesn't mean I'm 100% certain on the edge's shave ready perfection nor does it mean that the electrician wired up the circuit correctly.

All it really means is it's time to do another shave test. Nothing else matters, right?

Happy shaves,

Jim

Right!!

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Wednesday's shave was pretty good, but still a disappointment.

GD Laundry is a really nice soap. I'm not in love with scent but it's okay. I suppose it smell vaguely like someone's laundry, but I smell a tiny amount of something vaguely citrus. Maybe. It's pleasant enough.

This Zenith boar needs to be used more. Really nice big brush. Not too big. Soft. Backbone. Just great.

I'll talk about the edge, but not in this post.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Okay, what about today's edge on the Geneva?

I thought it would be better than it was, but it was still significantly better after today's honing. I'm convinced that the honing I did today was in all respects the way to use the Double Convex Ark. I have no reservations about that. I definitely made progress.



Still, it is not a gloriously sharp edge. It's not as sharp as my Kukri off the Zulu Grey or some other edges I have achieved nor does it shave as well. Not that the shave was bad. Not that the edge was unimproved. I'm sure I could put this edge to the pasted strops and turn it into something considerably better and more satisfying but that would be cheating when it comes to mastering the DCA.

Aside from that there are a couple or so things I'm considering.

• More time on the soft side. I know the bevel is all that really matters. Perhaps it's not 100%. In fact, the bevel of this blade has been a doubt in the back of my mind since before I began with the DCA.
• More time on the hard side. No particular reason, but why not.
• Go back and set a bevel on the coticule or the Chosera 1K or both (reverse the order, 1K first then coti). Then set a DCA bevel. Then finish on the hard DCA side.
• Give up on this blade. Don't want to do that.
• Try the DCA on another blade and return to the Geneva later. Don't want to do that either. Not yet anyway.

Since the edge isn't glorious sharp I don't want to be making a big deal about what I know about using this DCA stone, but I do want to document stuff...

...for my own purposes. I want to know later what I think I've learned already. I want to know what my baseline is - what I did, how I did it, what I was thinking - next time I use the stone. Etc.

• Even though the stone is convex, when using it there's no reason to think of it as anything other than just another flat stone. This is important. The entirety of the blades edge is not going to be on the stone at any moment, but so what.
• The way to think of and use the DCA is to focus on sharpening one area of the blade at a time. Not the whole blade; just the part of it that feels un-smooth on the stone. As you go along you'll find other places needing to be smoothed. Smooth them all, several times until you're certain.
• The blade should not be perpendicular to the long axis of the stone, but any other orientation is fine. Toe or heel leading. 10 degrees. 20 degrees. 45 degrees. Windshield wipers.
• Half strokes, X- strokes, circles, elliptical strokes. All are fine and can be used at will. Of course, the two sides of the blade have to be more or less balanced, but there's no need to actually count to the nth degree.
• The most important thing is to feel what's going on between the stone and the edge. Does is feel incredibly smooth? If so, that's the ticket. If not, if there's any roughness or gritty feeling or anything like that at any point on the stone going in any direction, more work needs to be done.
• Pressure is fine. It's okay to push down a bit with the off hand fingers or torque the blade or whatever.
• Of course you still end up on both stones with just the weight of the blade.
• You don't need very much lubricant (Ballistol water; about 1:4 works fine on both stones).

Again, this is not me saying that anything I just wrote is chiseled in stone correct or instructions for your use (or mine). It's just what I am thinking might be right. It's subject to revision as I actually learn more and get to a really great edge.

I'm not there yet, but it was a significant jump in everything this time around. I don't mind feeling or looking foolish down the road as I look back on this. Just want to figure out how to get a great edge using the Double Convex Ark, and think I made a lot of progress, but not as much as I'd hoped.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Okay, what about today's edge on the Geneva?

I thought it would be better than it was, but it was still significantly better after today's honing. I'm convinced that the honing I did today was in all respects the way to use the Double Convex Ark. I have no reservations about that. I definitely made progress.

View attachment 975206

Still, it is not a gloriously sharp edge. It's not as sharp as my Kukri off the Zulu Grey or some other edges I have achieved nor does it shave as well. Not that the shave was bad. Not that the edge was unimproved. I'm sure I could put this edge to the pasted strops and turn it into something considerably better and more satisfying but that would be cheating when it comes to mastering the DCA.

Aside from that there are a couple or so things I'm considering.

• More time on the soft side. I know the bevel is all that really matters. Perhaps it's not 100%. In fact, the bevel of this blade has been a doubt in the back of my mind since before I began with the DCA.
• More time on the hard side. No particular reason, but why not.
• Go back and set a bevel on the coticule or the Chosera 1K or both (reverse the order, 1K first then coti). Then set a DCA bevel. Then finish on the hard DCA side.
• Give up on this blade. Don't want to do that.
• Try the DCA on another blade and return to the Geneva later. Don't want to do that either. Not yet anyway.

Since the edge isn't glorious sharp I don't want to be making a big deal about what I know about using this DCA stone, but I do want to document stuff...

...for my own purposes. I want to know later what I think I've learned already. I want to know what my baseline is - what I did, how I did it, what I was thinking - next time I use the stone. Etc.

• Even though the stone is convex, when using it there's no reason to think of it as anything other than just another flat stone. This is important. The entirety of the blades edge is not going to be on the stone at any moment, but so what.
• The way to think of and use the DCA is to focus on sharpening one area of the blade at a time. Not the whole blade; just the part of it that feels un-smooth on the stone. As you go along you'll find other places needing to be smoothed. Smooth them all, several times until you're certain.
• The blade should not be perpendicular to the long axis of the stone, but any other orientation is fine. Toe or heel leading. 10 degrees. 20 degrees. 45 degrees. Windshield wipers.
• Half strokes, X- strokes, circles, elliptical strokes. All are fine and can be used at will. Of course, the two sides of the blade have to be more or less balanced, but there's no need to actually count to the nth degree.
• The most important thing is to feel what's going on between the stone and the edge. Does is feel incredibly smooth? If so, that's the ticket. If not, if there's any roughness or gritty feeling or anything like that at any point on the stone going in any direction, more work needs to be done.
• Pressure is fine. It's okay to push down a bit with the off hand fingers or torque the blade or whatever.
• Of course you still end up on both stones with just the weight of the blade.
• You don't need very much lubricant (Ballistol water; about 1:4 works fine on both stones).

Again, this is not me saying that anything I just wrote is chiseled in stone correct or instructions for your use (or mine). It's just what I am thinking might be right. It's subject to revision as I actually learn more and get to a really great edge.

I'm not there yet, but it was a significant jump in everything this time around. I don't mind feeling or looking foolish down the road as I look back on this. Just want to figure out how to get a great edge using the Double Convex Ark, and think I made a lot of progress, but not as much as I'd hoped.

Happy shaves,

Jim

I have been reviewing my efforts with this razor. Efforts have been made on several stones over a period of time. It's not that nothing has worked, but nothing has worked particularly well. I'm not ready to give up on the blade. I've heard very good things about the same brand and style razor, owned by other guys, and I want to figure this one out.

However, it might be an issue with my razor. It sure looks like a good one (to my eye, not that I'm any kind of expert), but maybe it's not so great.

I've had trouble with other razors and eventually figured out a way with them. Some razors are of course easy as pie.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Cal]

I have been reviewing my efforts with this razor. Efforts have been made on several stones over a period of time. It's not that nothing has worked, but nothing has worked particularly well. I'm not ready to give up on the blade. I've heard very good things about the same brand and style razor, owned by other guys, and I want to figure this one out.

However, it might be an issue with my razor. It sure looks like a good one (to my eye, not that I'm any kind of expert), but maybe it's not so great.

I've had trouble with other razors and eventually figured out a way with them. Some razors are of course easy as pie.

Isn't your Geneva a bit more wedgy than all your others Jim? And if so wouldn't that make a difference?

 

[Somerled]

I have been reviewing my efforts with this razor. Efforts have been made on several stones over a period of time. It's not that nothing has worked, but nothing has worked particularly well. I'm not ready to give up on the blade. I've heard very good things about the same brand and style razor, owned by other guys, and I want to figure this one out.

However, it might be an issue with my razor. It sure looks like a good one (to my eye, not that I'm any kind of expert), but maybe it's not so great.

I've had trouble with other razors and eventually figured out a way with them. Some razors are of course easy as pie.

Happy shaves,

Jim

If it had been me doing this, I would have tried more than one razor.
Not to say you were doing anything wrong Jim, far from it.

I've got a few razors that are very fussy about what stones I use on them, more so my Ark than any other stone. (although most seem to like coticules).
I think that's why I stopped using my Ark, because not all blades liked it. Mind you, that could have been down to my inexperience at that time.

I'm almost tempted to try convexing one side of my Ark. Should be doable as it's 1" thick, and keep the other side flat.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

I'm almost tempted to try convexing one side of my Ark. Should be doable as it's 1" thick, and keep the other side flat.

Jarrod says it's not harder to do or learn than all the other SR skills such as honing, stropping, shaving. There's gotta be a way to do the convexing, Doug, without spending 25 hours laboring away at it.

You have a super thick Ark. I'm not sure how hard you've said it is. Regardless, Jarrod is now or soon will be selling I think smallish (but not too small according to me) convexed Arks in both the Hard Translucent and the softer bevel setting stones, and the prices are not terrible. So, whatever you have will pair with whatever you need.

Someone posted about only having and successfully using a Hard Translucent Black from Jarrods. They're finishing on it. They don't have the softer convexed Ark (and I can't recall what they're using so it could be a convexed coticule but I have no idea).

I say go for it, but I'm a misery loves company guy.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Isn't your Geneva a bit more wedgy than all your others Jim? And if so wouldn't that make a difference?

Good point, Cal. I looked at several of the pictorial representations of the various grinds. They are not uniform in what they call the various grinds or how they picture them.

I'd call the Geneva a Half Hollow. Certainly not a Quarter Hallow.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[global_dev]

I would be excited to try a convexed ark, I much prefer narrow hones.

i dont quite get why you are saying the following.

The blade should not be perpendicular to the long axis of the stone,

To my mind, It shouldn’t matter what angle the razor is along a convexed plane since the action is on a point and the plane is spherical as long as you are doing an X stroke. The angle of incidence only dictates the scratch pattern and the length of the scratches along the bevel.

What am I missing about what you are saying?

 

[Dzaw]

You have already answered your own dilemma.

The bevel was in question before you started it on this stone...

This stone is convexed in 360 degrees - no matter how slightly, it will put a convex bevel on the razor. When it first kisses the stone, the part of the old bevel that gets ground is the part furthest from the edge.

Start this razor on the soft side. Set the bevel. Use the burr method, and make sure you get a burr along the entire edge. Then make sure you move the entire burr to the other side, then grind the entire burr down. Make sure the bevel is both A: Absoloutely not in question. and B: Correctly formed for the shape of the stone you are finishing on.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

You have already answered your own dilemma.

The bevel was in question before you started it on this stone...

This stone is convexed in 360 degrees - no matter how slightly, it will put a convex bevel on the razor. When it first kisses the stone, the part of the old bevel that gets ground is the part furthest from the edge.

Start this razor on the soft side. Set the bevel. Use the burr method, and make sure you get a burr along the entire edge. Then make sure you move the entire burr to the other side, then grind the entire burr down. Make sure the bevel is both A: Absolutely not in question. and B: Correctly formed for the shape of the stone you are finishing on.

I agree with you entirely in the notion that nothing good is happening until a good bevel has been set. I also use the burr method of bevel setting when using a stone such as my Chosera 1K which lends itself to the burr method.

If the Double Convex would allow me to achieve a burr I'd be doing that, but I don't think it will. I'm not 100% sure but I'd bet on it were I a betting man. My coticule won't give me a burr either as far as I can tell (and others have told me there coticule won't either).

I could take the Geneva back to the Chosera 1K, and might. It's not like I've not worked on it with a bunch of other stones. It's been a difficult blade all along in the sense of being puzzling. With a lot of blades you get to the point where you're sure of things. Not so with this one.

Well, except yesterday. I was more sure yesterday than previously with this blade. Being as sure as I was yesterday was a premature and incorrect surety.

I don't think it's as simple as I'd like to think it is. I can think of several thinks to try. Still, I agree with you.

Make sure the bevel is both A: Absolutely not in question. and B: Correctly formed for the shape of the stone you are finishing on.

True. I like the burr method for several reasons. Number 1 on the list is how it to a large degree removes subjectivity.

This stone is convexed in 360 degrees - no matter how slightly, it will put a convex bevel on the razor. When it first kisses the stone, the part of the old bevel that gets ground is the part furthest from the edge.

True.

Let me ask you since it's possible your experience will tell me something I need to know. Have you been able to achieve a burr along the edge of your blades using the Double Convex Ark? If you have done that, my notions about it need to change. What kind of razor? What steel, if you know?

I would be excited to try a convexed ark, I much prefer narrow hones.

To my mind, It shouldn’t matter what angle the razor is along a convexed plane since the action is on a point and the plane is spherical as long as you are doing an X stroke. The angle of incidence only dictates the scratch pattern and the length of the scratches along the bevel.

What am I missing about what you are saying?

You may be entirely right. I was not saying I know anything. I could have been wrong in any part of what I wrote. I was documenting how I saw it as I was using the stone yesterday.

What you're saying here makes sense. I'm not sure you're right (or wrong). It can be tested.

Jarrod is making and will sell a DCA which is I believe 2.5 inches wide which might suit you.

Happy shaves and thanks for your comments,

Jim

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Thursday my shave was good.

I really like both this brush and this shaving soap.

Veggie based Barbershop is terrific by any standard. It's an Italian barbershop scent, not an American shop scent. See the little flag on the container? The performance would be hard to beat even using other Grooming Dept soaps.



With a good sharp, comfortable razor and all the other great stuff I use my shave was pretty darn good. The edge is holding up very very well with just stropping. Plus, it is so comfortable (Zulu Grey edge it is).

Happy shaves to you,

Jim

 

[Dzaw]

I have not used convex stones, but I have used Arks most of my life (again, on knives). I've never had a problem forming a burr on Arkansas stones. I don't see how the convexing of the stone would alter whether or not it can raise a burr. If anything, it should make the burr more noticeable sooner due to the decreased contact patch which (as discussed) concentrates the downward pressure into a smaller area.

If my impression is correct (I've never used a coti) the reason coticule stones generally won't raise a burr is a combination of the slurry (which knocks the burr down as it forms, so you never detect it) and the friable nature of the stone, which wears faster than Arks.

My concern with taking it back to the chosera is that the chosera is a flat stone - you'll be ruining any progress you've made on the DCA and will have to start the DCA all over again. Once you set a bevel on a flat stone, then put the razor to a convexed hone, the contact point for the edge bevel on that convex stone is going to be on the point where the bevel meets the body of the blade, not where the apex of the edge is (which will be lifted ever so slightly off the stone). This means you would have to grind on the convex stone until you have ground a new bevel that matches the convex geometry of the hone.

 

[Cal]

This means you would have to grind on the convex stone until you have ground a new bevel that matches the convex geometry of the hone.

Like this:

Excuse the scrappy sketch.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

I have not used convex stones, but I have used Arks most of my life (again, on knives). I've never had a problem forming a burr on Arkansas stones. I don't see how the convexing of the stone would alter whether or not it can raise a burr. If anything, it should make the burr more noticeable sooner due to the decreased contact patch which (as discussed) concentrates the downward pressure into a smaller area.

Very cool and (maybe) helpful information on the Double Convexed Ark. Certainly helpful on the Arks.

If my impression is correct (I've never used a coti) the reason coticule stones generally won't raise a burr is a combination of the slurry (which knocks the burr down as it forms, so you never detect it) and the friable nature of the stone, which wears faster than Arks.

My concern with taking it back to the chosera is that the chosera is a flat stone - you'll be ruining any progress you've made on the DCA and will have to start the DCA all over again. Once you set a bevel on a flat stone, then put the razor to a convexed hone, the contact point for the edge bevel on that convex stone is going to be on the point where the bevel meets the body of the blade, not where the apex of the edge is (which will be lifted ever so slightly off the stone). This means you would have to grind on the convex stone until you have ground a new bevel that matches the convex geometry of the hone.

I believe this is exactly true and accurate. Not that I know, but I think it is what Jarrod is saying to a degree. There is someone who reports just finishing on a Convexed Ark (not the Double Convexed Ark), but not bevel setting on the softer convexed Ark bevel setter.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Like this:
View attachment 975511

Excuse the scrappy sketch.

Nice, Cal.

 

[Dzaw]

Actually, Cal, those sketches were right on! Well done.

That's why I am thinking if you want to experience what this edge can provide you, you will need to set the bevel on the softer side of the DCA, then refine it on the black side.

Assuming the steel can support such an edge, it should be surprisingly keen.

 

[Esox]

Shaving themed fridge art.

 

[global_dev]

Jarrod is making and will sell a DCA which is I believe 2.5 inches wide which might suit you.

i dont think size of the convexed stone in my case is an issue. I dont want the full flat of a 3” wide flat hone.

The picture above is odd to me relative what i thought i saw. It supposes that the ark will wear the bevel side where it meets the blade face away when honing. Is an ark face enough to cut that steel? (reminds me of honing a near wedge and how much of the bevel face wears away before you get near the edge.)