Damn Comfortable Shave

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

There are a number of patents for one piece DE razors pre dating the Segal, including the O'Malley patent of 1925, which Gillette bought and used as the basis for its patent infringement lawsuit against Segal, and the Edmonds and Dunn patents of 1909 and 1913 respectively.

The patent for the Gem Micromatic TTO dates from 1930.

Thanks. Good information.

 

[mjclark]

I suspect that Marcus @mjclark would know more about the Mühle R41 history than anyone. Beaming you up Marcus... we seek knowledge.

Heard you Cal!
The pre-2011 R41 is indeed an open comb.
The 2011 and 2013 models are the familiar toothcomb.
See this thread:
R41 (pre-2011) vs R41 (2011 and later.

It is confusing that Muhle kept the identical name for different razors but it does mean you can find unidentified 2011 R41s still lurking in the wild...

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Heard you Cal!
The pre-2011 R41 is indeed an open comb.
The 2011 and 2013 models are the familiar toothcomb.
See this thread:
R41 (pre-2011) vs R41 (2011 and later.

It is confusing that Muhle kept the identical name for different razors but it does mean you can find unidentified 2011 R41s still lurking in the wild...

Useful and interesting information in that thread, sir. Thanks for the link.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Steve1981]

I'm a wet shaver. In other words, I've been shaving with a Gillette Fusion, and real shaving creams, and sometimes brushes for many years (well, decades if I include other iterations of Gillette's "modern" razors with multiple blades).

My shaving career began before these razors were invented, so I, like just about everyone back in 1960 began shaving with a Gillette twist to open double edge. I cut myself all the time, and was a lot better at shaving with razors like the Fusion.

Like most people, I've tried everything, and like most people, most everything works okay or great on my face, and is lousy on my neck. The best of my neck shaves have been with the Gillette Fusion.

Through reading this forum and lots of other online material I decided to give double edged razors another try. Why? Frankly I'm not sure. Certainly it is not about the expense of the Fusion blade systems because I can use one for weeks or even months. Yeah, it will tug a bit, but it still shaves well, and doesn't irritate my sensitive neck. Maybe the DE just seems cool, and traditional, and has the promise of delivering a shave which is both BBS and comfortable.

Back in the day I used to occasionally get a real barber shop shave by a real, old time, experienced, skilled barber. Those were the shaves I dreamed of, and hoped to replicate at home with a double edged razor.

BBS sounds great, and why shouldn't it, but a damn comfortable, and pretty good shave would have to come first, and be a development milestone, and be a higher priority item. After all, who cares how you look if you're hurting, and miserable?

Old timers are going to kick me here because I don't follow every direction worth a hoot, and am prone to change variables. I don't do this professionally (being scientific in my approach), but this isn't rocket science, and I can do as I like (and suffer the consequences).

Today I got what I would consider a still not perfect but close to it damn comfortable shave. I changed several variables. I took a shower first, but I still did a hot to warm towel over first lather pre-shave preparation. I used a new and different brush, a RazoRock Plissoft Monster Synthetic instead of my Semoque SOC boar. I didn't change soaps, but used, other than the towel soak, cold water, and cold lather.

My razor is a Feather AS-D2. I changed today to a different blade. Instead of a Feather I used a Personna med blade (marked "for hospital use").

Yeah, I know this is not the way anyone should do things especially not a newbie like me, but, shoot me, I'm just reporting.

My goal this morning was not to get a good, close shave, but to get a comfortable shave. I can't say the shave is the most comfortable I've ever gotten. It certainly is not as comfortable as most shaves I got with the Fusion. However, it is the most comfortable shave I've gotten with a double edged razor.

I did only only pass with a little touch up on my chin. Still, my shave is pretty good, certainly socially acceptable, and, frankly, closer than I would have expected with one pass.

What was the difference? Was it the cold shave? Was it the blade? There's no way to be sure, but it still pleases me very much to know that a damn comfortable double edged shave is possible. I suspect it will get better as I become more experienced, and listen to my face, and learn to shave better.

Oh, I bought some Dickinson's witch hazel yesterday.

I'm a wet shaver. In other words, I've been shaving with a Gillette Fusion, and real shaving creams, and sometimes brushes for many years (well, decades if I include other iterations of Gillette's "modern" razors with multiple blades).

My shaving career began before these razors were invented, so I, like just about everyone back in 1960 began shaving with a Gillette twist to open double edge. I cut myself all the time, and was a lot better at shaving with razors like the Fusion.

Like most people, I've tried everything, and like most people, most everything works okay or great on my face, and is lousy on my neck. The best of my neck shaves have been with the Gillette Fusion.

Through reading this forum and lots of other online material I decided to give double edged razors another try. Why? Frankly I'm not sure. Certainly it is not about the expense of the Fusion blade systems because I can use one for weeks or even months. Yeah, it will tug a bit, but it still shaves well, and doesn't irritate my sensitive neck. Maybe the DE just seems cool, and traditional, and has the promise of delivering a shave which is both BBS and comfortable.

Back in the day I used to occasionally get a real barber shop shave by a real, old time, experienced, skilled barber. Those were the shaves I dreamed of, and hoped to replicate at home with a double edged razor.

BBS sounds great, and why shouldn't it, but a damn comfortable, and pretty good shave would have to come first, and be a development milestone, and be a higher priority item. After all, who cares how you look if you're hurting, and miserable?

Old timers are going to kick me here because I don't follow every direction worth a hoot, and am prone to change variables. I don't do this professionally (being scientific in my approach), but this isn't rocket science, and I can do as I like (and suffer the consequences).

Today I got what I would consider a still not perfect but close to it damn comfortable shave. I changed several variables. I took a shower first, but I still did a hot to warm towel over first lather pre-shave preparation. I used a new and different brush, a RazoRock Plissoft Monster Synthetic instead of my Semoque SOC boar. I didn't change soaps, but used, other than the towel soak, cold water, and cold lather.

My razor is a Feather AS-D2. I changed today to a different blade. Instead of a Feather I used a Personna med blade (marked "for hospital use").

Yeah, I know this is not the way anyone should do things especially not a newbie like me, but, shoot me, I'm just reporting.

My goal this morning was not to get a good, close shave, but to get a comfortable shave. I can't say the shave is the most comfortable I've ever gotten. It certainly is not as comfortable as most shaves I got with the Fusion. However, it is the most comfortable shave I've gotten with a double edged razor.

I did only only pass with a little touch up on my chin. Still, my shave is pretty good, certainly socially acceptable, and, frankly, closer than I would have expected with one pass.

What was the difference? Was it the cold shave? Was it the blade? There's no way to be sure, but it still pleases me very much to know that a damn comfortable double edged shave is possible. I suspect it will get better as I become more experienced, and listen to my face, and learn to shave better.

Oh, I bought some Dickinson's witch hazel yesterday.

 

[Steve1981]

I'm new to this as well. To start off I now just go wtg first then go atg and again atg where I missed so it's soft and smooth. I don't go xtg though as I find problems occur. I get a better shave then my old gillette fusion pro glide power with flexball technology. It takes a lot of effort and time for Me, but my face is smoother than ever. Yea it's not rocket science that's for sure. Everybody has different hair types, and use various tools to achieve this. Mens facial hair grows in different directions and so on. So it can be a pain at first, but the end result is a better shave. I'm still learning I'm new too. I still need to experiment with some different blades and razors later on to see if I can get the closest most comfortable and smooth shave as possible with less time consuming. It takes me about 35 minutes to shave. I use a wahl de razor with wilkinson sword classic razor blades right now,

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

The 2011 and 2013 models are the familiar toothcomb.

Threads containing debates about whether the R41 is an open comb razor or a closed comb razor are easy enough to stumble upon. I have no opinion to share about either point of view although I noticed this morning during my first and only shave with the R41 that it was leaving trails of soap on my face and neck in the manner of an open comb.

I can understand both sides of the debate, and could care less which it is.

That is particular true because you've nailed it. This razor is the unique Toothcomb. Easy to buy into that description.

Sometimes we need a medium-tooth comb. Sometimes a fine-tooth comb...

So, we have choices.

Lots of choices.

There are gentlemen and ladies who prefer to

But, when it comes to the R41 all of its fans agree it's a

Some might say it's a might fine toothcomb.

I can honestly say it's the only toothcomb razor I've ever seen, but maybe there are others.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Capisco Capisce]

No, I'm perfectly happy to be back in the fold of normal crazy. Oh, The Roedter 1909 is out as a desired object of acquisition.

Damn, that thing is crazy! But if it weren't for 29 Euro shipping for something I'll likely only use once, I'd get it. Actually, if I were collecting Fatip like you are, I WOULD get it!

 

[Capisco Capisce]

Tuesday's shave was good.

View attachment 891887

This was my first shave with my new R41 head. The handle is the iKon Bulldog. The blade, a previously used Polsilver. The soap is a sample.

I shaved at a very steep angle. I didn't ride the cap at all. This was my approach because I'd heard that at a steep angle the razor is a pussycat.

That may be somewhat of an exaggeration, but not too very much. The razor was not particular hard to use. Now, make no mistake. I was fairly careful. I certainly didn't throw the razor about with reckless abandon. This is after all a R41.

I found the razor perhaps not what you might call terribly smooth, but it was far from rough. It was also fairly quiet. I expected a lot of audible feedback and chatter.

View attachment 891891

This was a shave I expected to be closer and a razor I expected to be unworldly efficient. Neither were the case. The R41 is reasonably efficient and the shave was pretty close, but I did not get an immediate post shave BBS neck nor did my lower lip end up as smooth as it sometimes does with other razors.

My shave was my usual shave. If anything, I under did the number of jiggy passes and the buffing, but that's not to say I didn't get jiggy and do some buffing.

One shave is not enough to grade a razor. I like the R41 a lot more than I might have guessed, but it doesn't rate anywhere near as high in efficiency as touted on B&B and elsewhere.

View attachment 891890

My guess is a lot of gentlemen have faces and necks much easier to shave than mine.

It's possible the razor will grow on me as I can experience with it. It's also possible I'm a lousy shaver.


View attachment 891892

These were my post shave products applied after witch hazel.

I did get a little nothing nick on my chin and a weeper under my chin. Not anything big, but I never get weepers and seldom cuts (although sometimes). So, maybe the razor is aggressive.

The soap sample doesn't smell all that much different from the King of Oud. I'm surprised. Did they send me the wrong sample. I'll have to compare them side by side.

Happy shaves,

Jim

My R41 experience is similar to yours, as I rotated from Feather, to GSB, to KAI, to try and control the R41's propensity to nick. It was not smooth, but not as harsh as I expected either, well until I put the KAI in it. The KAI was pretty harsh.

Like you, I initially thought the R41's reputation of killer efficiency was unwarranted. Yeah, it's efficient, but not in its own class. I'm a bit torn though on my initial impression of only reasonable efficiency, rather than the very high efficiency I was expecting. I believe it may indeed possibly be very efficient, but because I can't really apply any pressure at all with it on some areas of my face, I may not be using it in a manner that's conducive to it shaving at optimal efficiency.

When I used it on its second shave (with a Feather), and did a three-pass shave using my usual pressure and did some buffing & touch-up, I did get a spectacularly close shave. Maybe my closest ever. I also subsequently had more nicks & weepers than I ever received in a single shave before! So I never used the R41 in that aggressive & thorough manner again. Consequently, I believe I may be losing some efficiency due to my somewhat hesitant technique.

 

[mjclark]

I can honestly say it's the only toothcomb razor I've ever seen, but maybe there are others.

Happy shaves,

Jim

Quite a lot of the very aggressive European bakelite razors from the 1930’s have toothed or fluted combs.
And Mulcuto made a “needle comb” razor which is similar.
I guess the R41 is the only contemporary DE with anything like this though.

 

[jmudrick]

This patent was quite influential...the bar with channels (more scalloped than toothy) you see in the 1933 Conrad razor patent which begat the Barbasol. Similar concept and rationale in terms of lather management..

Quite a lot of the very aggressive European bakelite razors from the 1930’s have toothed or fluted combs.
And Mulcuto made a “needle comb” razor which is similar.
I guess the R41 is the only contemporary DE with anything like this though.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

My R41 experience is similar to yours, as I rotated from Feather, to GSB, to KAI, to try and control the R41's propensity to nick. It was not smooth, but not as harsh as I expected either, well until I put the KAI in it. The KAI was pretty harsh.

Like you, I initially thought the R41's reputation of killer efficiency was unwarranted. Yeah, it's efficient, but not in its own class. I'm a bit torn though on my initial impression of only reasonable efficiency, rather than the very high efficiency I was expecting. I believe it may indeed possibly be very efficient, but because I can't really apply any pressure at all with it on some areas of my face, I may not be using it in a manner that's conducive to it shaving at optimal efficiency.

When I used it on its second shave (with a Feather), and did a three-pass shave using my usual pressure and did some buffing & touch-up, I did get a spectacularly close shave. Maybe my closest ever. I also subsequently had more nicks & weepers than I ever received in a single shave before! So I never used the R41 in that aggressive & thorough manner again. Consequently, I believe I may be losing some efficiency due to my somewhat hesitant technique.

If I'm willing to hurt myself with too much pressure and too many passes I can get an amazingly close shave with a Feather AS-D2 particularly loaded with a Feather blade.

For me, and I suspect everybody else, comfort is goal number one. A shave which isn't comfortable, regardless of how close and smooth it is, is a bad shave.

I've used the Kai blade probably only once and really hated it. I'm not likely to use it again, although anything's possible. I've always liked my shaves with the Feather blade until later when I noticed the bad razor burn.

From what I've read most people using the R41 end up concluding that it likes a very sharp and also very smooth blade. Of course, what that blade is for any particular person is not an across the board constant. For me, the Polsilver tends to fall in that group. I've also read very good things recently about the Silver Star. I happen to have about a hundred of the Silver Star blades (they're very inexpensive at Connaught and elsewhere). Anyway, I used one the other day in the PAA Prismatic. I may move that blade to the R41 for its second shave.

Not saying I know anything about the R41 yet, but I've learned that if I hurt myself it's usually a function of too much or too many or too little.

• Too much pressure.
• Too many passes.
• Too little lather.
• Too little hydration.
• Too little time.
• Too much carelessness.
• Too little attention to the task at hand.
• Too much desire for a close, smooth shave.

In recent weeks I've noticed that most all of my shaves are way better than they were a month or two ago, and they weren't bad then. I think I'm doing a bunch of stuff right, or, at least better. Perhaps highest on this list is better hydration of my lather, but it could also be just better shaving technique. I'm not aware of any technique improvements but that doesn't mean they aren't there.

In general, I've been shaving without regard to angle. Depending on audible and tactile feedback I've been changing the angle for different parts of my beard, and on any ole whim, and for different passes. I'm not saying it's been random, just that it's been kinda unconscious and automatic.

Yesterday, with my first R41 shave I was deliberately and consciously shaving only at a very steep angle, riding the guard. I'ver read too much about this razor biting people and a lot about it working better at a steep angle. Perhaps I'll vary the angle a lot more as I go along with the razor and practice.

That's assuming I continue to shave with the R41. I wasn't wild about the nick and weeper I received yesterday.

I see a bunch of guys selling or talking about selling all their razors for the newest razor craze, the Rex Ambassador. I'm not fixing to jump on an adjustable RE razor, but it's interesting to see crazes like this. No, I'm not saying the razor isn't worthy of the rave reviews. I have no opinion there. However, the R41 seems to have been a long time semi-cult razor here and in other online communities. I suspect it is worth exploring. So, why not.

It's not like I don't have plenty of good kit to use whenever or if I decide the R41 isn't worth my efforts.

Another thing: I think the R41 toothcomb looks really, really cool. That's an absolutely stupid reason to like a razor, but there it is.

Happy shave,

Jim

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Quite a lot of the very aggressive European bakelite razors from the 1930’s have toothed or fluted combs.
And Mulcuto made a “needle comb” razor which is similar.
I guess the R41 is the only contemporary DE with anything like this though.

Thanks. I'll keep an eye out for them.

Does the toothcomb design correlate with being very aggressive, or is there something else these aggressive toothcomb razors share?

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

This patent was quite influential...the bar with channels (more scalloped than toothy) you see in the 1933 Conrad razor patent which begat the Barbasol. Similar concept and rationale in terms of lather management..

I'm sure I'm not the only one who enjoys seeing the patents.

Thanks and happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

On deck: SLOC head. R41 baseplate. RR Barberpole handle. Silver Star blade.

Pretty, isn't it. Somehow everything fits together nicely in the visual of this Frankenrazor.

They say the R41 needs lots of water (a wet razor, a hydrated lather). The cap can't hurt in that regard, right? Maybe that's why people say the SLOC or Yaqi cap smoothes the R41?

Happy shaves to you,

Jim

 

[jmudrick]

They make interesting reading. The Conrad patent was driven by the fact that brushless creams like Barbasol would tend to stick and clog in open comb teeth, thus the search for a different way to channel the cream.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who enjoys seeing the patents.

Thanks and happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Wednesday's shave was good.

My Proraso Pro is useable, but still scritchy. It isn't broken in yet in spite of a lot of effort on my part. It's going to be a very nice brush one day, and it's okay now.

Today's razor was the RR SLOC cap and RR Barberpole handle paired with the R41 baseplate and a Silver Star blade which had been used once before.

There was again one very little chin nick, but it was the same nick as yesterday, reopened. Not a big deal at all. This was far from a blood donor shave. Other than that this was a good shave.

The R41 is a bit rough feeling under my nose and not as smooth as butter on my lower lip and chin, but it is smooth enough. It's not in the league with the ATT SE2 when it comes to harshness. I'm figuring out the angles for the various parts of my face and neck.

Today I varied the angle. I was a cap rider. I shaved very, very steep. Both worked pretty well I think. The razor certainly has some blade feel, and I'm still learning how to use it, but I wouldn't call it overall a rough, or harsh, or aggressive feeling razor. It's also not the dream razor when it comes to efficiency, but I'd say it's more efficient than most DE razors.

Frankly, I'm not sure it delivers a better shave than my much smoother RR SLOC, but I've not used the R41 except yesterday and today. I'm still learning it and exploring it. There are other blades to try, etc.

The R41 has a cap considerably wider than the interior of its baseplate. On first glance it looks like the razor blade is not well supported, but that's wrong. The blade extends outward far enough to rest on the tops of the toothcombs. Thus the blade is hugely more rigid than I'd expect; this was confirmed by my usual rigidity testing methods (which are imperfect, but decent enough for my purposes).

The blade does extent a long way beyond the point at which it is clamped by the cap and the baseplate, but it is pretty rigid anyway.

The gap is tiny. Very tiny. Almost not there tiny. Somebody measured it, but I've forgotten the numbers.

Today's shave was pretty good. Probably better than my shave yesterday. Maybe a bit closer.

I love my Wickham 1912 soaps. However, I think maybe Wholly Kaw might be a better soap with this razor. I'm not sure yet. RR 888 splash is great stuff. This was a good kit today.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Ron R]

Wednesday's shave was good.

View attachment 892182

My Proraso Pro is useable, but still scritchy. It isn't broken in yet in spite of a lot of effort on my part. It's going to be a very nice brush one day, and it's okay now.

Today's razor was the RR SLOC cap and RR Barberpole handle paired with the R41 baseplate and a Silver Star blade which had been used once before.

View attachment 892183

There was again one very little chin nick, but it was the same nick as yesterday, reopened. Not a big deal at all. This was far from a blood donor shave. Other than that this was a good shave.

The R41 is a bit rough feeling under my nose and not as smooth as butter on my lower lip and chin, but it is smooth enough. It's not in the league with the ATT SE2 when it comes to harshness. I'm figuring out the angles for the various parts of my face and neck.

Today I varied the angle. I was a cap rider. I shaved very, very steep. Both worked pretty well I think. The razor certainly has some blade feel, and I'm still learning how to use it, but I wouldn't call it overall a rough, or harsh, or aggressive feeling razor. It's also not the dream razor when it comes to efficiency, but I'd say it's more efficient than most DE razors.

Frankly, I'm not sure it delivers a better shave than my much smoother RR SLOC, but I've not used the R41 except yesterday and today. I'm still learning it and exploring it. There are other blades to try, etc.

The R41 has a cap considerably wider than the interior of its baseplate. On first glance it looks like the razor blade is not well supported, but that's wrong. The blade extends outward far enough to rest on the tops of the toothcombs. Thus the blade is hugely more rigid than I'd expect; this was confirmed by my usual rigidity testing methods (which are imperfect, but decent enough for my purposes).

The blade does extent a long way beyond the point at which it is clamped by the cap and the baseplate, but it is pretty rigid anyway.

The gap is tiny. Very tiny. Almost not there tiny. Somebody measured it, but I've forgotten the numbers.

Today's shave was pretty good. Probably better than my shave yesterday. Maybe a bit closer.
View attachment 892193
I love my Wickham 1912 soaps. However, I think maybe Wholly Kaw might be a better soap with this razor. I'm not sure yet. RR 888 splash is great stuff. This was a good kit today.

Happy shaves,

Jim

You are for sure going into the unknown twilight zone with that r41 with the SLOC head. Interesting JIM that you are trying that experiment. I like my baby Frakenrazor with one shim underneath the primary blade with the Razorock SLOC, it just makes it have some positive blade exposure and shave with great ease and with stellar results from my testing results.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

You are for sure going into the unknown twilight zone with that r41 with the SLOC head. Interesting JIM that you are trying that experiment. I like my baby Frakenrazor with one shim underneath the primary blade with the Razorock SLOC, it just makes it have some positive blade exposure and shave with great ease and with stellar results from my testing results.

Yours is made of what parts? Photos?

Never mind, I think I figured it out. It's a SLOC with a shim, right?

 

[Ron R]

Yours is made of what parts? Photos?

Never mind, I think I figured it out. It's a SLOC with a shim, right?

Razorock SLOC with a twist.....
Those are my photo's that are from another forum I contribute to on making a proper shims. No doubt in my mind that the early pioneers of the twin blades were experimenting with shims sandwiched to see early results were possible and positive. And track II razor comes to mind, its always a race to see who has new and better products and trying to sell those ideas internally in Gillette factory's would be hard to do. The jealousy in plants almost kill new ideas that folks come up with because the boss wants the credits or promotions- I have worked in plants that can sometimes kill ideas and some how they resurface when the original idea person finds a new job. Plants who reward employees for good ideas are more than likely still in business.(kind of went on a tangent)

 

[mjclark]

Thanks. I'll keep an eye out for them.

Does the toothcomb design correlate with being very aggressive, or is there something else these aggressive toothcomb razors share?

Happy shaves,

Jim

All those aggressive toothcomb razors have a lot of blade exposure... the toothcomb in itself doesn’t make for aggression but it’s a very good design..

Also the 2013 R41 was greatly toned down by Muhle and probably shaves at about the same level as a FaTip so it’s not surprising that people here are underwhelmed by it. Nice shaver though...
It’s the 2011 version which is the formidable one.