Damascus steel razor - a curiosity question

[q345]

Hi all,
I've recently read one of the old posts, from 2008, which named 'why do Tim Zovada's razors cost so much?'. Somebody very knowledgeable in the subject(his name is Joel, I think), provided a very detailed answer, and one of the reasons mentioned, that Tim Zovada not only makes razors from Damascus steel, but he is the ONLY one who makes his own Damascus steel, not getting ready chunks of it.

The question I want to ask people who own Damascus steel razors, not necessary made by Tim Zovada is if these razors provide truly superior shave comparing with other types of razors,? I saw a number of Damascus steel razors, which costs few hundred dollars, like 500 or 600, from different makers, lone of them Ralf Aust or Boker, but I am not sure and I am wondering if they really shave much better then some razors from these makers which costs 300-400 and made from carbon steel?
Just a curiosity question.

 

[Legion]

I think it is mostly an aesthetic benefit, more than a practical one.

 

[Mastropiero]

Well, I can tell you for certain he is not the only one making his own Damascus. He might be one of the few forging his own steel to start with, but there's others who make their own Damascus. Drew Dick, in England, makes his own, as I'm syre there's others. He doesn't do whole blades as Zowada does, ie the edge on his blades is O1 steel welded to the Damascus, but the patterns he creates are very much his own work.

I haven't tried a blade with a Damascus edge so I can't tell if they're better or not. In Drew's razors it is absolutely aesthetic.

Sent from my G8341 using Tapatalk

 

[Slash McCoy]

JMHO but in this day of known, optimized alloys with good consistency and quality control, I do not think there is any practical advantage to pattern welded steel for making razors. Any claims that a blade made from PWS is somehow superior to a good alloy steel that is properly hardened and tempered, is pseudo-science IYAM. However, a PWS blade can be quite striking in appearance. The extra work in forging, and the distinctive visual effect, are well worth the premium price to many buyers.

BTW what is available today is NOT actually Damascus steel. Many metallurgists have tried to precisely duplicate genuine Damascus but the secret is long lost and who knows if it will ever be completely rediscovered. True Damascus was actually made in India and was a crucible steel called Wootz. There have been modern attempts at recreating Wootz that come fairly close, but no cigar. So just be aware that what is called Damascus today, whether it is "fake" or "real", is not actually Damascus at all, just CALLED Damascus. So if you want to be technical and proper, you call it PWS, or Pattern Welded Steel. Enough people do call it Damascus anyway, that you won't be shouted down for going along with the herd, but it is good to know that there is a definite distinction between the two.

Bottom line is if you are buying a PWS razor because you like the look of it or respect the effort and craftsmanship that it takes to make a good PWS blade, or take it as a sign that equal care was given to all other aspects of making the razor, then it may well be worth the price. If you are thinking of buying it because you believe that multiple layers of different steels forged together creates a blade that is structurally and practically superior to high quality and properly treated modern alloy steel, then you are paying extra for something that you quite simply IMHO are not getting.

 

[q345]

Stash, thanks a lot for your detailed answer. Of course, these razors look beautiful, no one denying it, they have really crossed from tools to pieces of art, but I was wondering about functionality, thinking 'Damascus' steel supposed shave better.

Regarding old Damascus steel, I am going to check more, just got interested. BTW, when you wrote, 'the attempts to recreate it come close, but no cigar' I am wondering how you objectively check 'the closeness'? Do you run series of load tests on old real Damascus sword and same dimension sword made from new 'Damascus's steel? Or some additional methods, like examination under extremely powerful electronic microscope? And composition analysis?

Running to Wikipedia today evening.

 

[bluesman 7]

@q345 here is a great video about reproducing wootz.

 

[JoWolf]

@q345 here is a great video about reproducing wootz.

Thanks for the film excellent.

 

[Slash McCoy]

I did not know about the vanadium. One thing that the video didn't say enough about is the apparent importance of the vegetative matter used as the carbon source and the trace minerals found therein. Or the temperature cycling.

If you get patterning, obviously you are getting close.

google for "wootz damascus crucible steel nano tubes" and you will probably find something interesting about genuine ancient Damascus steel.

Personally, intuitively, but without actual empirical evidence, I suspect that a head to head shootout between genuine ancient Damascus and expertly forged modern tool steel alloys would give a slight win to the modern steel, or at least a tie. The legendary magical reputation of real Damascus blades was well earned in antiquity due not as much to the superiority of Damascus steel as to the inferiority of common iron and carbon steel blades of the day. If you took a good 1095 steel sword, expertly forged and heat treated, back with you in your time machine to the year 900 AD, after a few battles, your alloy steel blade would probably gain a nearly supernatural reputation, as well. Take this final paragraph with a grain of salt because I could be wrong, but I don't believe that genuine ancient Damascus fanboys have proven their case at all, any more than modern pseudo-Damascus advocates have. EXCEPT in regard to aesthetics and to comparison to common steel or iron of the ancient world. YMMV.

 

[q345]

I did not know about the vanadium. One thing that the video didn't say enough about is the apparent importance of the vegetative matter used as the carbon source and the trace minerals found therein. Or the temperature cycling.

If you get patterning, obviously you are getting close.

google for "wootz damascus crucible steel nano tubes" and you will probably find something interesting about genuine ancient Damascus steel.

Personally, intuitively, but without actual empirical evidence, I suspect that a head to head shootout between genuine ancient Damascus and expertly forged modern tool steel alloys would give a slight win to the modern steel, or at least a tie. The legendary magical reputation of real Damascus blades was well earned in antiquity due not as much to the superiority of Damascus steel as to the inferiority of common iron and carbon steel blades of the day. If you took a good 1095 steel sword, expertly forged and heat treated, back with you in your time machine to the year 900 AD, after a few battles, your alloy steel blade would probably gain a nearly supernatural reputation, as well. Take this final paragraph with a grain of salt because I could be wrong, but I don't believe that genuine ancient Damascus fanboys have proven their case at all, any more than modern pseudo-Damascus advocates have. EXCEPT in regard to aesthetics and to comparison to common steel or iron of the ancient world. YMMV.

 

[q345]

Here is the link to the thread which caused my interest
'Why are Tim Zowada's razors so expensive?'
Second or third post is a lengthy one with all the reasons listed, 'Damascus' is one of them

Why are Zowada's so expensive?

I only know str8 razor basics so what is so special about the Zowada razors. I understand that they are breathtakingly beautiful, but why such a high price. Is it really that much of a better shave?

www.badgerandblade.com

Another posts in this thread, also explain the difference between real Damascus 'Wootz' steel and Pattern Welded steel, the modern one.

 

[sexy beast]

I own 7 Damascus razors. One of them shaves better than any razor I’ve ever owned. I’ve been straight razor shaving for over 35 years. None of them are cheap. 5 of them are Boker Damascus. One Damascus Wacker “least”and one Thiers Issard Damascus “best”. I have other razors that shave pretty darn good that are not Damascus. But the Theirs Issard Damascus is on a different level. It holds an edge like no other in my collection. I have a stainless Boker that is just as sharp but does not hold the edge as long.Of course this is just my personal experience. I will also say that these Damascus blades take a lot more effort to hone by far. I don’t know if it has to do with the metal mixture but it is definitely harder hone these edge on these Damascus blades but it’s worth it in the end for me. Plus they look really cool.

 

[q345]

Sexy beast, May be you can post the photo/model of your Thiers Izzard Damascus razor? Interesting to see if it is available and what are opinions of other people who owned/tried it. As it was explained,it isn't a real Damascus but PWS where floating pattern is being entirely differently than in case of Wootz steel.
from the movie posted by Bluesman, ( really good one) it looks like a group in US come very close to recreate real Damascus steel. May be in few years, true Damascus razors will be available, for very wealthy people at least.
I saw on Boker site, their Damascus razors are about 700$ not cheap at all.and Thiers Issard one is almost 1300$, not cheap for non custom.

Thiers Issard Straight Razor, Damascus, Blonde Horn, 6/8

Coco Chanel. Brie de Meaux. Champagne. The French have been known for centuries to craft some of the finest luxuries in history, and that luxury now includes Damascus straight-razors. Since the industrial revolution, few straight razors have been traditionally hand-forged. Forging improves...

www.kentofinglewood.com

 

[sexy beast]

Sexy beast, May be you can post the photo/model of your Thiers Izzard Damascus razor? Interesting to see if it is available and what are opinions of other people who owned/tried it. As it was explained,it isn't a real Damascus but PWS where floating pattern is being entirely differently than in case of Wootz steel.
from the movie posted by Bluesman, ( really good one) it looks like a group in US come very close to recreate real Damascus steel. May be in few years, true Damascus razors will be available, for very wealthy people at least.
I saw on Boker site, their Damascus razors are about 700$ not cheap at all.and Thiers Issard one is almost 1300$, not cheap for non custom.

Thiers Issard Straight Razor, Damascus, Blonde Horn, 6/8

Coco Chanel. Brie de Meaux. Champagne. The French have been known for centuries to craft some of the finest luxuries in history, and that luxury now includes Damascus straight-razors. Since the industrial revolution, few straight razors have been traditionally hand-forged. Forging improves...

www.kentofinglewood.com

In my humble opinion. I would consider all of these Damascus razors to be custom. They’re all limited number. Boker, Wacker, and Thiers Issard. They happened to be larger production companies these razors are individually made. My TI Is a very unique razor because I have not seen any of the Thiers Damascus looks like this one I own. It shaves beautifully. I’m not sure why people would make a statement that it’s not a true Damascus blade. I’m not sure of these or those folks that make that claim that has even ever own one. Let me know if you’d like me to show you my others as well.

 

[sexy beast]

BTW, I inquired about that razor you posted off of Kents site. Very Nice folks at that shop.

 

[q345]

Sexy beast, thanks a lot for posting a picture of your razor. A short post, since I am writing from my phone, I'll post more today evening when I am back home. Just one important point to avoid misunderstanding: the recepy for 'true' Damascus steel was lost about 200 years ago. It was made from Wootz steel produced in India and characterized by a unique beautiful floating patern and exceptional qualities in term of sharpness, durability etc. In that sense, ANY Damascus steel produced novadays is not a true one since this floating paternal is now achieved by multiple iterations of folding and twisting few pieces of steel together, while in Wootz steel it was a characteristic of steel itself. Please, watch the video at this thread about the closest attempt to recreatev Wootz steel. Also, wikipedia has lengthy article about it. So that by no means this statement was false / detrimental to your razor. More relevant stuff today evening.

 

[sexy beast]

Sexy beast, thanks a lot for posting a picture of your razor. A short post, since I am writing from my phone, I'll post more today evening when I am back home. Just one important point to avoid misunderstanding: the recepy for 'true' Damascus steel was lost about 200 years ago. It was made from Wootz steel produced in India and characterized by a unique beautiful floating patern and exceptional qualities in term of sharpness, durability etc. In that sense, ANY Damascus steel produced novadays is not a true one since this floating paternal is now achieved by multiple iterations of folding and twisting few pieces of steel together, while in Wootz steel it was a characteristic of steel itself. Please, watch the video at this thread about the closest attempt to recreatev Wootz steel. Also, wikipedia has lengthy article about it. So that by no means this statement was false / detrimental to your razor. More relevant stuff today evening.

Do you or anyone has a sample of this so called wootz steel? I’ve heard about this for years and it just seems to me like a unicorn discussion to me. Which bow out that discussion and maybe someone with blacksmith background step in. As far as Damascus razor in current Legitimate production like Boker, IT , Wacker. I can only speak from my personal experience that they are excellent and all brands in different configuration. And one of them shaves better than anything I’ve ever used before. As far as wootz Steel is concern, I’ve never touch or seen this product before on being on this planet for half century. Sorry I was not any further help on this topic but it’s something more myth than fact when comes this ancient mysterious metal I keep hearing about past few years. Maybe somebody can chime in it actually has handled this so-called wootz steel.

 

[Eastcoast30]

I watched that video. I minored in metallurgical engineering and I was fascinated. I forwarded it to some other metallurgy nerds. I especially like sealing off the crucible by melting broken beer bottles - that's where spiritualism is added to the alloy.

 

[bluesman 7]

There is a book specifically about John Verhoeven's quest to recreate Wootz Damascus;
'Damascus Steel Swords: Solving the Mystery of How to Make Them'

Also a pretty good chapter on the subject in 'Knife Engineering' Dr Larrin Thomas

 

[Slash McCoy]

Most genuine wootz that has survived until now, is in museums. You may find blades of unknown provenance being bought and sold, but remember, it is steel, and hasn't been produced in almost 300 years, and steel rusts, after all. I was going to suggest checking with James H Cohen and Sons, 437 Royal Street, in New Orleans (Antique Weapons, Rare Coins & Currency, Jewelry | James H Cohen & Sons - https://cohenantiques.com/) but they currently don't seem to have anything for sale that might be genuine Damascus. Hard to say, from the website.

 

[sexy beast]

@q345 here is a great video about reproducing wootz.

Very interesting. Never seen this before. Thank you!