Crogenic Treatment for DE Blades

[RoyalKooparillo]

If you're like me, when you think of cryogenic freezing, something like this comes to mind:

However, cryo-freezing isn't just for people looking to freeze themselves until a cure is found for their mystery ailment, or whatever. It's also a process that can be used to strengthen metal (and other materials). Gun barrels, tools, golf balls--and razors--can all be treated. Some time ago, I stumbled across a website that sells cartridge blades and a couple DE brands that have been cryogenically treated. Intrigued, I purchased some cartridge blades to test out (I keep a Fusion in the shower for 'maintenance'), and lo and behold, the blades stayed sharp on average 3-4 times longer than stock blades.

This was a revelation for me, because due to a very coarse beard I have never been able to get more than a couple of comfortable shaves out of a single DE blade. I've started thinking about the longevity of my blades in terms of number of passes, rather than shaves. My favorite blades are Feathers, and they last on average about 9 passes for me. So, the thought popped into my head...why not get some Feathers treated and see if they last longer?

David at Cryopro was nice enough to treat some Feathers that I sent to him in the mail, and more recently, some Gillette 7 o'clock Yellows.

Impressions:

Well, now that I have been shaving with these blades for a few months, I feel comfortable giving some feedback about how the tempering has affected the blades. Although I've only shaved with a dozen or so of the treated Gillette Yellows, I've noticed the same characteristics that I've been observing with the treated Feathers.

1. Edge Retention
One of the first things I noticed was that my Feathers were staying just as sharp at the end of a shave as they were in the beginning. The treatment has without question given the blades better edge retention. Although I'm not one to push a blade too far, I have been able to double the amount of passes I can get with a Feather--from 9 to 18--with little degradation in the quality of shave. I'm sure I could go farther, but I haven't wished to do so. I'm quite happy doubling the life of my favorite blades.

2. Feel
It's hard to describe, but the blades have a bit of a different 'feel' to them than stock blades. I wouldn't say they are better or worse...just different. I know that's not a lot of help, but bear with me. For those of you unfamiliar with Feathers, there is a feeling of super-sharp, buttery-smooth cutting action on the first several strokes that is pretty remarkable--but as the edge dulls ever so slightly over the course of the shave, this feeling diminishes. I had initially wanted to see how long I could prolong this exceptionally smooth cutting action. However, what I've found is that I don't get quite the same buttery feel on the first several strokes with a treated Feather as I do with an untreated one...it's still smooth, but just a notch below that nirvana level. What's amazing, though, is that the treated blade stays that way--long after an untreated blade goes into the trash.

3. Overall
My overall impression is that the cryo-treatment is absolutely worthwhile. While I don't get those first several strokes of shaving nirvana with a treated blade, I get many, many more strokes of near-nirvana with them. Now, of course YMMV and all that, so I sent some blades to a few of our members in the hope of forming a more comprehensive examination of how the treatment has affected these blades. Perhaps they will be kind enough to chime in and share their own perspectives.

Treatment Process

Here's how it works, according to the Cryopro website:

Our proprietary deep cryogenic tempering process uses cryogenic temperatures (-300 degrees F) to transform the soft carbon (austenite) into a smaller and stronger carbon molecule (martensite). This makes the surface of the metal less porous, so there is more surface area to wear. When the process is complete, the metal is less brittle, stronger and much more durable than before. Tools can be Cryo'd when new or dull. Cryo'd tools are actually easier to resharpen because 50% less material is removed each time, so the tool can be resharpened twice as many times. If the tool is resharpened after being Cryo'd, it will cut much longer. Our process permanently alters the entire thickness of the metal, not just the surface. The entire process takes 3 to 7 days.

Cryo-processing:

-increases abrasive wear resistance.
-requires only one permanent treatment.
-creates a denser molecular structure. The result is a larger contact surface area that reduces friction, heat and wear.
-changes the equipment's entire structure, not just the surface. Subsequent refinishing operations or re-grinds do not affect permanent improvements.
-eliminates thermal shock through a dry, computer controlled process.
-transforms almost all soft retained austenite to hard martensite.
-forms microfine carbide fillers to enhance large carbide structures
increases durability or wear life.
-decreases residual stresses in tool steels.
-decreases brittleness.
-increases tensile strength, toughness and stability coupled with the release of internal stresses.

Details

I have spoken with David and he has agreed to allow anyone to send him their favorite blades for treatment. He will treat any blades that he does not sell on his GreatRazors site (I believe he only sells Merkur and Personna Platinum Chrome DE blades). He charges $1.50/pack (with a $10 minimum) plus $3.50 shipping/handling for the treatment. I asked him for a quote about bulk treatment, but he never got back to me...I'm sure that could be done on a case-by-case basis. You can reach David via email at: [email protected].

Now, a difficult question: Is it worth it? Well, worth is such a subjective thing...I'm guessing it might not be worth it to some folks who enjoy paying 20 bucks for 100 Derbys or Personna Reds, etc...But for more expensive blades like Feathers, the cost/benefit ratio is a little better. Ultimately, the choice is of course up to you...but I would recommend trying it just for the heck of it. As a general disclaimer, I'm in no way affiliated with Cryopro/GreatRazors, this was just a personal experiment of mine that I thought I'd share with my fellow B&B brethren.

Although I'm no expert on the process, I'm happy to answer any questions I can. Also, if you get a chance to try the treatment for yourself, please share your experience here...the more feedback the better!

Cheers,

Michael

 

[Rufust445]

I still have a golf driver, the SubZero, that was cryogenically treated stainless steel. It seemed to work, but the head size was smaller than what is in fashion today. I've since gone to a titanium head that employs other technology for enhancing distance, so much so that the USGA has a rule and test in effect limiting how much bounce to the ounce is permitted.

As for blades, how does this cryogenic process affect the coating on blades? I suspect, though I'm not sure, that the 7o'clock yellows are PTFE coated.

How does the process affect the adherence of a PTFE or Platinum coating?

 

[RoyalKooparillo]

I still have a golf driver, the SubZero, that was cryogenically treated stainless steel. It seemed to work, but the head size was smaller than what is in fashion today. I've since gone to a titanium head that employs other technology for enhancing distance, so much so that the USGA has a rule and test in effect limiting how much bounce to the ounce is permitted.

As for blades, how does this cryogenic process affect the coating on blades? I suspect, though I'm not sure, that the 7o'clock yellows are PTFE coated.

How does the process affect the adherence of a PTFE or Platinum coating?

Hmmm, that is an interesting question. To be honest, I'm not sure. That would be something to ask David.

 

[Trius]

Michael was kind enough to send me two cryo-treated Feathers to test and provide feedback to him. He had noted my enthusiasm for the Feather, and that I have been able to get longer than average use from them.

So far I have used one of the treated blades, in my Schick Stainless/Krona. I have experienced the same results as Michael, so I won't repeat the common findings. But I will add a couple of notes.

First, it is my experience that just as full, "proper" prep enhances many aspects of a shave, it also gives a better indication of blade longevity. For those of us who shave in the morning before work, the long, luxurious prep isn't an option, so in practical terms, it really doesn't make a big difference in daily life. However, to eliminate prep as a variable, I tested the treated Feather more than once under "ideal" conditions." So far, I have had 6 shaves with this blade, averaging about 3.5 passes per shave.

What I noticed on the first shave (full prep), was that the blade felt different. My sense is that it was just smoother ... not by an order of magnitude, but enough to be perceptible. Even though I've never found Feathers to be rough, as some do, it was closer to a Swede than the "stock" Feather.

Second, it has maintained the smoothness and sharpness better than normal. Again, it is not like night and day, but it is there. I am not ready to dispose of this first trial blade, though I am not interested in a longevity test, either.

The second blade will go into a 40s SS, which is a bit more aggressive than the Schick. However, tf I had a more aggressive razor, I would use that.

Since I am happy with untreated Feathers as my reference blade, I am not sure if I will be sending many, if any, to be treated. While I don't find the pricing unreasonable, it is enough that, for me, it's on the edge of value for money, since Feathers are 5 blades per pack, not 10. I may end up sending in 5 packs and keep them for those special shaves or trying out in new razors.

Thank you again, Michael, for the samples. You exemplify the B&B Gentleman.

 

[itsallshots]

Very interesting, see I was made to believe that what you do with metal (mainly stainless streel in the example given above) was that austentie will convert to marsenite, when you heat the metal to allow the metal ions to re-organise and then quench harden them to freeze the structures and form marsenite, I'm not sure if you can do that by just freezing the metal? Interesting find! I can explain the science behind that if need be

 

[paul.c]

Wonder if the fellow will do one of my straight blades. I would love to see how that worked out, and honed afterward.

 

[RoyalKooparillo]

Thanks for the kind words and for your input, Earl.

Wonder if the fellow will do one of my straight blades. I would love to see how that worked out, and honed afterward.

I'm almost certain that he would. If you decide to do it, please keep us updated...I'd love to see how it goes!

 

[paul.c]

sadly it takes a great long while for stuff to get mailed out of here and back to here, so minimum two months before i would have it back in my possession to start testing and honing. How irritating. I hate being deployed.

 

[SavantStrike]

Wonder if the fellow will do one of my straight blades. I would love to see how that worked out, and honed afterward.

Dredging up an old topic here but +1 on that. I think the 10 dollar cost would be most effective on a straight as a straight is a razor that is kept for a very long time. I read over this and wondered if maybe I shouldn't do it on a straight (if I ever end up with one, I'm waiting until I can adequately afford the hones/strops/etc). Somebody cryo treat a straight!

 

[Jim]

Cryogenic Treatment for DE Blades

Michael was good enough to send me several of these treated blades to test. This is a very intriguing idea, I thank him for the chance to participate in the review.

I used all three blades for my shaves with a standard untreated blade between the use of the treated ones. standard,treated,standard,ect,ect.

As has been noted before by the other gentlemen, the blades do seem to be "different".

The blade were shipped to me taped to a piece of paper,in an envelope. I was initially concerned that this could be the source of the blades feeling not as sharp as the non treated blades. As I have gone through all three, they are very consistent, I don't think the mailing was the cause of the change.

I use Feather blades almost exclusively, I get three good shaves and possibly a fourth from a standard untreated blade.
The treated blades felt as if it was shave three from the start and stayed that way for a couple of shaves, I usually gave up on the blade before the blade did. I did get six, OK shaves out of these blades.

From the cost side of things, I get my blades in bulk from a vendor and the addition costs of treating these blades does not make them a better buy or reduce the end of the day expenses.

From a shave quality standpoint, I do not care for the treated blade, I had to work harder to get my usual great shave. It just did not feel "right".

The use of cyro treatment in razor blades seems to have a lot of potential, the right blade or tweaking the process itself may provide just the combination of parameters to really extend the life of our blades.

Thanks again Michael

 

[richmondesi]

That's a great idea. I would be interested to here how well it works with a str8

 

[BobS]

I was posting on another forum, about my new hobby and one of the responders ask if I had tried the cryo treated blades? I checked out the site and kind of blew off the idea, but then got three follow-up responses that increased my curiosity. The comments were as follows:

1. I'm not really sure (how it works), but in the Jeep world some are cryogenically freezing axle shafts and some other weak links in the drivetrain. . . obviously the harder you could make an edge the better up to the point it becomes brittle and cracks too easily.

2. They've been doing that to rifle barrels for years now, my understanding is that it relieves internal stress. I don't pretend to understand how it does that, but it appears to work.

3. From my years in Aerospace... we by spec. had to use cryo within an hour after heat treatment and plating several types of Stainless. It lessened the propensity of hardened SS to develop surface cracks (which will propagate deeper into the metal) by removing hydrogen from the surface that was imbedded due to the heat treat process. AKA called Hydrogen embrittlement relieving.

After reading those comments, I came back here and found this old thread and thought it was interesting.

I wonder if this could turn into a group buy or a group effort on straights?

As an aside, I am no expert here, but I wouldn't think that you would want to put your scales through the treatment, but the folks that do it can probably comment.