On another dicussion thread, http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/341889-Tallow-Vs-Lanolin , it came up that water hardness might be a problem in getting good lather. Does anyone have more experience with this issue? I am having difficulty getting good lather from Mitchell Wool Fat, but most other soaps are just fine for me. Is it my technique or the water? MWF has such a great rep, that I am wondering what could possibly be wrong? I live in the country and have really hard well water. I am constantly scrubbing calcium/lime deposits off the sink, shower, etc. I don't always get good lather from bar soap either, so that MUST be causing problems for my shaving soap. Advice?
Could water hardness mess up the ability to get good lather?
- Thread starter Kentb
- Start date
I'd recommend trying a distilled water shave. A gallon of distilled water should be about a buck, and it should last two weeks or so. Just soak your brush and soap in the water, splash some on your face and go to town. I also have very hard water and this is the only way I can get great lather.
In California the tap water is extremely hard. I'd say it definitely affects soap lathering. That being said, it isn't enough to make a soap unusable. If it were that bad, I would chose a different soap. Some people do use distilled water and the like, but I personally never will.
In my experience, hard water just means using more soap to get the same lather.
The ability to get a good lather? No. Does soft water make it easier? Yes. I shave in every variety of water and always feel that water hardness/softness is one of the more overrated factors discussed around here. I can get the same quality of lather, just different techniques, effort, etc. the power of more comes into play...more product, more water and more work.
garyg
B&B membership has its percs
We have "moderately hard" Great Lakes water here - and Mitchell's is the hardest to get to lather of all that I've tried (and that's a fair number of soaps). I avoid it on those days where I don't want to spend extra time .. but, that said, if you soak the bowl and soap in water just off the boil for a couple minutes, and swirl it upside down for two minutes, or until your carpal kicks in, then face lather until the other wrist gives out, it does give a good shave ..
I can't speak to MWF because I haven't used it in hard water, but I have used other soaps in varying conditions. (As part of the 3017 thread, I use a puck of soap until it is done before starting on the next) recently I used a puck of Mama Bear soap at home with good results, but could not get any decent lather out of it when travelling to hard water destinations. So, I would say that hard water plays a major factor in lather quality or at least the ease of obtaining good quality lather.
I have VERY hard water. Like 23 is the number hardness. Or in the 30s, maybe? I'd have to look at the paperwork. Yes, it does affect the ability to get good lather from soap. I use more shampoo, dish detergent and laundry detergent than most people. My Dad has a well. He can put in a 1/4 cap of Tide and it's almost too much. I can put in two caps...it's fine. No over-sudsing or anything.
However, I CAN lather, relatively well, just about any decent soap I've put in front of my sink. I can imagine how great it'd be and how much less product I'd use if I had soft water. But, I don't. I can lather about anything but crappy glycerine soaps. (Crappy ones, not all. Some are good.) I use MWF on a regular basis. I will say this stuff does seem to lather better in cooler water, not really hot water. Like luke warm to room temperature.
However, I CAN lather, relatively well, just about any decent soap I've put in front of my sink. I can imagine how great it'd be and how much less product I'd use if I had soft water. But, I don't. I can lather about anything but crappy glycerine soaps. (Crappy ones, not all. Some are good.) I use MWF on a regular basis. I will say this stuff does seem to lather better in cooler water, not really hot water. Like luke warm to room temperature.
no, not in the least, i have terrible hard water and the lather is fine-
does this look like I had any problems
20 seconds with C&E and a outer ring of RR
does this look like I had any problems
20 seconds with C&E and a outer ring of RR
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i hear MWF has issue with lather anyway
The big problem with lanolin in shaving soap is it can separate from the soap at certain important temperatures. Lanolin melts at 100F, while shaving soaps melt somewhere between 90-odd and 110F and, some way higher. Thing is, I notice that the lanolin separates when it melts, while the rest of the soap doesn't separate from itself. Keep in mind that the lanolin in the soap emulsion might start to separate at a different temperature, not necessarily at the melting point. It's odd that lanolin's an emulsifier yet seems to do this. I guess it's because it's wax and needs to be worked in better to... well, work well.
OTOH, I've always felt that the soap itself was rather mediocre, and its only the lanolin that makes it more useful and popular.
OTOH, I've always felt that the soap itself was rather mediocre, and its only the lanolin that makes it more useful and popular.
I didn't think so until I installed a water softener. Yes it does.
I don't think I have ever gotten lather that looks like that. I might have to make a YouTube video to see if I'm doing something wrong. That's impressive. I'm on quasi-city water where I live and it borders on granite as far as hardness goes, I might have to see if there's anything I can do to soften it up a bit or just heat water from my Brita pitcher which should have filtered out some of that junk.
I have hard water as well and I've never gotten a lather to look like that either unless I use distilled water.
Yes.
Water hardness is measured on the Carbonate scale, but there are MANY factors that affect lather creation. The one reason why MOST people can't get a good lather with super-hard water is that they don't use enough product. Water hardness takes aways the surface tension and changes the surfactant level of the soap which is needed to create bubbles which start the lather. Also water that is high in Lead or Iron is more difficult to lather, but pure Carbonate Hardness does not really mean that you will have poor lather. Tallow soaps tend to fair much better in hard water than veggie soaps do because the fat adheres to the water molecule and helps promote surface tension. Also, some municipal water providers actually put detergents into the water that retard production of lather...the reason is that they do not want the Carbonate to scale on the inside of their pipes...this also affects lather.
So in short, just because one has hard water does not mean that they cannot make lather. There are many factors that affect this, such as salt...saltier water makes better lather due to the ionic nature of the water. There is also such a thing as soft hard water...Lake Malawi, in Africa is such a body of water...Hard as heck, but ionically soft, and very easy to make lather in...Mono Lake is another Soft hard water source...
Cheers!
I have hard water, and my experience has been that it does not necessarily prevent making lather, but does change the way it is made. There seem to be a lot of variables in the chemistry involved in making lather and water hardness is definitely one of those factors. When I make lather it seems like I have to use a higher proportion of soap to water. It seems easier to do this if I let the puck soak in hot water for a few minutes before I load my brush. You might try a couple of drops of glycerin. I haven't tried this yet, but from what I've seen on the boards, a lot of folks swear by it.
many people have reported the MWF If left in an open shave mug cracks and separates. , MWF must be kept covered
honestly , with all humility ,how some people on here cant get a lather is beyond me, its not that hard
