Coticule stones
- Thread starter Jsteele
- Start date
http://www.coticule.be/dilucot-honing-method.html
For touch ups I expect you'd just use straight water or lather.
You'd want a yellow or a yellow/blue combo. Yellow is the higher grit one (with water), Blue wouldn't make a good finisher or touch up hone.
Coticules are quite soft, so lapping shouldn't be much of a problem, I don't know of any place that sells them lapped. Open_Razor on ebay might. He advertises his China 12k stones as lapped, but his coticule listings don't mention it, may be worth a shot to ask him.
For touch ups I expect you'd just use straight water or lather.
You'd want a yellow or a yellow/blue combo. Yellow is the higher grit one (with water), Blue wouldn't make a good finisher or touch up hone.
Coticules are quite soft, so lapping shouldn't be much of a problem, I don't know of any place that sells them lapped. Open_Razor on ebay might. He advertises his China 12k stones as lapped, but his coticule listings don't mention it, may be worth a shot to ask him.
Hi,
Contact Howard at http://theperfectedge.com/. Not only does he sell a large assortment of these hones, he's full of knowledge.
old Joel
Contact Howard at http://theperfectedge.com/. Not only does he sell a large assortment of these hones, he's full of knowledge.
old Joel
if you can't buy one pre-lapped, You can always do it yourself for cheap with a glass plate, a piece of 300/400 wet&dry paper, and a little bit of time (elbow grease not required)
Coticules are very versatile - you can take a razor from quite dull to shave ready. There is only one kind of Coticule, though if you want to split hairs, there are sub-varieties (Kosher off the top of my head).
FWIIW/YMMV, I rarely use them as a finishing hone - I prefer the edges a little sharper.
FWIIW/YMMV, I rarely use them as a finishing hone - I prefer the edges a little sharper.
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The Coticule is a very good choice for putting a final finish on your razor. I would also recommend that you go to www.coticule.be and look at the coticule vault. In there are stones that have been evaluated by Bart, the absolute defacto expert on coticules, and you can see what each stones performance is rated. Once these have been evaluated, they go up for sale and are very reasonably priced.
One issue with using a coticule is that it will do every step of the honing process from setting the bevel to finishing. Because of this, most users do not have the patience to learn how to use their stone to its fullest. If you are willing to do that, you will not need any other stone.
If you have not experienced shaving with a razor honed on a coticule, send me a pm and I will help you with that.
Ray
One issue with using a coticule is that it will do every step of the honing process from setting the bevel to finishing. Because of this, most users do not have the patience to learn how to use their stone to its fullest. If you are willing to do that, you will not need any other stone.
If you have not experienced shaving with a razor honed on a coticule, send me a pm and I will help you with that.
Ray
The varieties of Coticules has to do with the various veins of Coticule (La Grise, La Petit Blanche, La Dressante, La Veinette just to name FEW). Some veins have very consistent characteristics as well. Concerning "Kosher" coticules:
FWIW, I would not recommend lapping a Coticule often if at all. In fact, I've been getting fantastic edges without lapping my coticule that I bought directly from Ardennes (the last active Coticule mining company). Many vintage coticules are quite dished and still get great results. In fact, if it's not seriously off, you don't need to bother. I'm reminded of a quote, "do you really think a hundred years ago barbers were running around like chickens with their heads cut off wondering if their hones were perfectly flat?" Of course the answer is no. Whenever a new honer runs into troubles, invariably another new guy will come in and ask the question, "is your hone lapped?" The point is, mathematical perfection in lapping is way overrated.
To use a coticule, or ANY natural stone for that matter, you really must learn how to use it properly, and you must learn the characteristics of your stone. Making blanket statements such as "Coticules are soft" doesn't really work because that is true of some, and not true of others. Additionally, you need to use a systematic approach to honing with a natural stone. If you think you're going to put some water on a Coticule and get great results after 20-30 strokes, you're likely going to be quite disappointed. If you are willing to work at it, learn how to use a slurry (and when not to including how to dilute it), and how to finish on it you'll be thrilled with the resulting edges. If you are only after a finisher and not willing to "work" at it, you likely won't care for the results.
Additionally, I would never recommend a new Coticule honer using the dilucot method to learn on. The Unicot Method is SIGNIFICANTLY easier to get good results with for a new guy. Here's what you can expect from a well honed edge coming off of a coticule: A very keen razor that "differentiates" (for lack of a better term) between your whiskers and your face. Here's what I mean. Sharpness can be attained by two ways: making the "V" in the razor come together as thin as possible, and by having microscopic "sawtooth" like striations. Coticules have garnets embedded of too great a size to allow for a striated edge. In order to attain keenness, you have to get the "V" thin. The resulting edge is extremely comfortable. My face doesn't even really feel the least bit "damaged" by the shaves I've had off of it.
If you are REALLY interested in a Coticule, please visit www.Coticule.be and learn from Bart's 2 years of dedicated research.
Also, for those interested in Belgian Blues, check out this Story About Garnets
I hope this helps
Bart Torfs on Coticule.Be said:
FWIW, I would not recommend lapping a Coticule often if at all. In fact, I've been getting fantastic edges without lapping my coticule that I bought directly from Ardennes (the last active Coticule mining company). Many vintage coticules are quite dished and still get great results. In fact, if it's not seriously off, you don't need to bother. I'm reminded of a quote, "do you really think a hundred years ago barbers were running around like chickens with their heads cut off wondering if their hones were perfectly flat?" Of course the answer is no. Whenever a new honer runs into troubles, invariably another new guy will come in and ask the question, "is your hone lapped?" The point is, mathematical perfection in lapping is way overrated.
To use a coticule, or ANY natural stone for that matter, you really must learn how to use it properly, and you must learn the characteristics of your stone. Making blanket statements such as "Coticules are soft" doesn't really work because that is true of some, and not true of others. Additionally, you need to use a systematic approach to honing with a natural stone. If you think you're going to put some water on a Coticule and get great results after 20-30 strokes, you're likely going to be quite disappointed. If you are willing to work at it, learn how to use a slurry (and when not to including how to dilute it), and how to finish on it you'll be thrilled with the resulting edges. If you are only after a finisher and not willing to "work" at it, you likely won't care for the results.
Additionally, I would never recommend a new Coticule honer using the dilucot method to learn on. The Unicot Method is SIGNIFICANTLY easier to get good results with for a new guy. Here's what you can expect from a well honed edge coming off of a coticule: A very keen razor that "differentiates" (for lack of a better term) between your whiskers and your face. Here's what I mean. Sharpness can be attained by two ways: making the "V" in the razor come together as thin as possible, and by having microscopic "sawtooth" like striations. Coticules have garnets embedded of too great a size to allow for a striated edge. In order to attain keenness, you have to get the "V" thin. The resulting edge is extremely comfortable. My face doesn't even really feel the least bit "damaged" by the shaves I've had off of it.
If you are REALLY interested in a Coticule, please visit www.Coticule.be and learn from Bart's 2 years of dedicated research.
Also, for those interested in Belgian Blues, check out this Story About Garnets
I hope this helps
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The varieties of Coticules has to do with the various veins of Coticule (La Grise, La Petit Blanche, La Dressante, La Veinette just to name FEW). Some veins have very consistent characteristics as well. Concerning "Kosher" coticules:
FWIW, I would not recommend lapping a Coticule often if at all. In fact, I've been getting fantastic edges without lapping my coticule that I bought directly from Ardennes (the last active Coticule mining company). Many vintage coticules are quite dished and still get great results. In fact, if it's not seriously off, you don't need to bother. I'm reminded of a quote, "do you really think a hundred years ago barbers were running around like chickens with their heads cut off wondering if their hones were perfectly flat?" Of course the answer is no. Whenever a new honer runs into troubles, invariably another new guy will come in and ask the question, "is your hone lapped?" The point is, mathematical perfection in lapping is way overrated.
To use a coticule, or ANY natural stone for that matter, you really must learn how to use it properly, and you must learn the characteristics of your stone. Making blanket statements such as "Coticules are soft" doesn't really work because that is true of some, and not true of others. Additionally, you need to use a systematic approach to honing with a natural stone. If you think you're going to put some water on a Coticule and get great results after 20-30 strokes, you're likely going to be quite disappointed. If you are willing to work at it, learn how to use a slurry (and when not to including how to dilute it), and how to finish on it you'll be thrilled with the resulting edges. If you are only after a finisher and not willing to "work" at it, you likely won't care for the results.
Additionally, I would never recommend a new Coticule honer using the dilucot method to learn on. The Unicot Method is SIGNIFICANTLY easier to get good results with for a new guy. Here's what you can expect from a well honed edge coming off of a coticule: A very keen razor that "differentiates" (for lack of a better term) between your whiskers and your face. Here's what I mean. Sharpness can be attained by two ways: making the "V" in the razor come together as thin as possible, and by having microscopic "sawtooth" like striations. Coticules have garnets embedded of too great a size to allow for a striated edge. In order to attain keenness, you have to get the "V" thin. The resulting edge is extremely comfortable. My face doesn't even really feel the least bit "damaged" by the shaves I've had off of it.
If you are REALLY interested in a Coticule, please visit www.Coticule.be and learn from Bart's 2 years of dedicated research.
Also, for those interested in Belgian Blues, check out this Story About Garnets
I hope this helps
+1 Bart is a precious resource and coticules are great hones.
HAD is the one addiction that pretty much never developed with me once I got my small setup that includes a coticule.
A 1200 DMT (bought used), a coticule with slurry stone and a 12K chinese stone.
I'm still too noob to tell if the chinese stone is even necessary (if it's doing anything coming of the coticule), but I like the edges I'm getting. The DMT I got for when I have visible edge damage and only have had to use it a couple of times so far.
I also vote for Bart's site or Howard at the perfect edge.
A 1200 DMT (bought used), a coticule with slurry stone and a 12K chinese stone.
I'm still too noob to tell if the chinese stone is even necessary (if it's doing anything coming of the coticule), but I like the edges I'm getting. The DMT I got for when I have visible edge damage and only have had to use it a couple of times so far.
I also vote for Bart's site or Howard at the perfect edge.
So I went over to Coticule.be to check out the vault. For the life of me, I can't find out on there how to determine the price of anything or even how to order a coticule. Any pointers?
I think you can write to Bart here or on his site.
Go to the cafeteria on his site> go to coticule tavern (I think it was moved there, but if not go to stones and hones)> and look for the sticky talking about the stones in the vault.
Bart doesn't actually sell these coticules, but rather evaluates them and helps facilitate the purchase from Ardennes.
Bart doesn't actually sell these coticules, but rather evaluates them and helps facilitate the purchase from Ardennes.
One other excellent seller -- and he will lap the stone for you if you ask. Mike Poe at www.bestsharpeningstones.com. Mike is a true gentleman, and I know from purchasing a beautiful combo stone from him last year. Check out his prices too -- I think you'll find they compare very well to what others are offering. Good luck!
+1
...and to elaborate just a little further (since I too had a little trouble figuring out the site at first)...
The Ardennes quarry lets Bart borrow the coticules so he can test them out - e.g. find out how hard/soft individual coticules are, how fast they cut, how keen than can make an edge, etc. He posts the results in the vault so anyone curious can read about them. If a picture of a coticule isn't 'clickable' it means he hasn't evaluated it yet.
As for buying coticules listed in the vault. Bart doesn't actually sell them - but you can buy them. If you register as a member of coticule.be you'll gain access to 'The Cafeteria'. As Richmondesi said, there's a sub-forum in there called 'The Coticule Tavern' and it has a thread titled 'Prices of Stones in the Vault'...
After Bart evaluates a set of cotis, Ardennes sets a price for each one, let's Bart list the price on his site, then when someone replies in the thread they want one, Bart forwards their 'purchase request' to Ardennes. So you're actually purchasing from the quarry, not Bart. So again, as was already mentioned, please remember that Bart does not get any money from the transaction. He merely acts as a go between because he loves playing with... I mean testing, coticules and he loves helping others interested in cotis get the chance to use them.
Oh, and one little word of warning: The stones can be quite beautiful and seductive - causing HAD to set in very, very fast. Be careful not to get to carried away or you'll be knee deep in cotis before you know it.
Hope this helps you and best of luck in your coticule journey.
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i have had every type of coticule, Standard select and kosher. I have to say my standard performs exallant. The differance is the price tag you pay more for kosher, mine worked fine but realy no differance in the shaving quality, compared to select or standard. I also like the look of my standard it has dark dot on it but it looks great.
Any that wants a coticule check coticule.be out. My last two were from the vault. They were both tested by the main man. They are both superb hones . One is select and the other is standard that one being my favourite. The standard one cuts so quik it unreal.
Any that wants a coticule check coticule.be out. My last two were from the vault. They were both tested by the main man. They are both superb hones . One is select and the other is standard that one being my favourite. The standard one cuts so quik it unreal.
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And don't denigrate the bbw side of combination hones. they're wonderful kitchen knife sharpeners, and there's significant variation in THEM, as well. Some may not be suitable for finishing but do well at setting the bevels, and others the reverse.
It has as much to do with your technique and expectations as it does the rock. Belgian blues are very similar to coticules, with the addition of iron oxide. The garnets that do the sharpening are slightly larger and slightly fewer, but with a light slurry can do much of the coticules job, saving wear.
Blue whetstones that are particularly rich in garnets (they're not all the same!) are often found attached to the coticules in combination stones, and it seems those tend to be darker with the coticule (sometimes) mixing with it slightly producing a layer between them that looks like muddy coffee with milk in it. It obviously has 'some' coticule blended with 'some' blue.
This is also proof the stone is natural and not slabs glued together, which is GOOD but not the same cost for rarity added in. Probably the glued blue & coticule would be the most economical if the mine is producing them, or would.
And any of the above may or may not apply to a particular combo rock, you must observe what it does in action and draw your own conclusions. It's just helpful to know there ARE differences and they matter, and combination rocks are entirely worth what they cost.
If I was going to make do with one hone for everything from razors to axes, a combination belgian would be the only stone I'd consider. WHICH one might take weeks to figure out. And, with all the hopes of the distributors stipulated, ignore suggestions to get a medium or small hone. Get the biggest one your budget permits. The large ones are the hardest to source and the most likely to be vanishingly rare in future. Snag one.
It has as much to do with your technique and expectations as it does the rock. Belgian blues are very similar to coticules, with the addition of iron oxide. The garnets that do the sharpening are slightly larger and slightly fewer, but with a light slurry can do much of the coticules job, saving wear.
Blue whetstones that are particularly rich in garnets (they're not all the same!) are often found attached to the coticules in combination stones, and it seems those tend to be darker with the coticule (sometimes) mixing with it slightly producing a layer between them that looks like muddy coffee with milk in it. It obviously has 'some' coticule blended with 'some' blue.
This is also proof the stone is natural and not slabs glued together, which is GOOD but not the same cost for rarity added in. Probably the glued blue & coticule would be the most economical if the mine is producing them, or would.
And any of the above may or may not apply to a particular combo rock, you must observe what it does in action and draw your own conclusions. It's just helpful to know there ARE differences and they matter, and combination rocks are entirely worth what they cost.
If I was going to make do with one hone for everything from razors to axes, a combination belgian would be the only stone I'd consider. WHICH one might take weeks to figure out. And, with all the hopes of the distributors stipulated, ignore suggestions to get a medium or small hone. Get the biggest one your budget permits. The large ones are the hardest to source and the most likely to be vanishingly rare in future. Snag one.
Agreed. I use the BBW side of my (tiny) natural combo on my kitchen knives, including in fact a Friodur chef knife. The BBW leaves a very nice edge. I only wish I had a larger combo (and the money for one!).
