Coticule prospective.

[Bayamontate]

I was sent a Le Grise to test and evaluate by someone I'm sort of mentoring as he is currently unable to obtain a shaveable edge from it. I tested several different razors, a Sheffield, Solingen, Japanese frameback, a MK and even a Kamisori and as is the case with most coticule wierdness, it's user error that is causing the fail. IMO, all coticules of all veins have different tells, developing the ability to read these tells make using them much easier. The tells on the Le Grise are for some reason much more subtle and occur much later in progressions than most other coticules, conversely, the tells on LPBs are much more obvious and predictable. From my experience, Dressantes, Vertes and La Veinette fall somewhere in the middle.

I figure what I'm try to say is, treat each coticule you encounter as a related but seperate entity. As far as Le Grise, or anyother uncooperative coticule, try difference approaches and pay attention to what she's telling you especially on a sensory level.

 

[zanzibarstoilet]

believe u for sure, but everybody wants the easy answer stone, though (not claiming innocence here)

 

[147_Grain]

What are some examples of the tells you've found? Most discussions of coticules I've seen mention that you've got to figure a stone out, but few of them say what to look for (besides the sensation of suction when finishing on water). Even the archival discussions on coticule.be are often frustratingly vague in this regard.

 

[Chaloney]

What are some examples of the tells you've found? Most discussions of coticules I've seen mention that you've got to figure a stone out, but few of them say what to look for (besides the sensation of suction when finishing on water). Even the archival discussions on coticule.be are often frustratingly vague in this regard.

I've been asking this question in different ways for a while, haven't gotten an answer that works for me yet. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that an answer will be forthcoming, as always. I have 4 cotis and I've gotten really good edges off each but they've been far outnumbered by mediocre edges at best and I have yet to identify what makes the difference, although my last two stones seem easier to get close. I think my real problem is that I only have one face to shave, so I don't need to hone often enough to get enough practice/experience.

 

[Brooksie967]

Magical mystical stones that only clairvoyants can understand. It's the rock, not the user, no way, never ever.

 

[Doc226]

With coticules I believe it is as much about the stone as the user.

I am sure a great coticule honer (Garry Haywood) can put a good edge using a "lesser" stone but I really doubt he can put a great edge on it. I have had the great pleasure and honor of using Gary's top coticule edge and it was second to NONE.

I have found a coticule that I can get as good an edge as Garry did, I could not get that edge with any of my other coticules-close yes, but not quite there.

Can a Le Grise give that FANTASTIC edge? Maybe but I would not hold my breath

 

[Brooksie967]

You can't hear them if you're not listening. Be one with the stone. Feel it, breathe it, eat it and it will release its magic tells to you and reward you with other worldly edges that dint shed blood but drip ambrosia from the nicks and cuts you get from losing concentration while shaving with the edge from the other side.

 

[aephilli]

You can't hear them if you're not listening. Be one with the stone. Feel it, breathe it, eat it and it will release its magic tells to you and reward you with other worldly edges that dint shed blood but drip ambrosia from the nicks and cuts you get from losing concentration while shaving with the edge from the other side.

When the moon is in the Seventh House
and Jupiter aligns with Mars...

Harmony and understanding
Sympathy and trust abounding
No more falsehoods or derisions
Golden living dreams of visions
Mystic crystal revelation
And the mind's true liberation

 

[aephilli]

... It's the rock, not the user, no way, never ever.

SEE!?!?

I knew it, it ain't my fault after all.....

 

[David]

What are some examples of the tells you've found? Most discussions of coticules I've seen mention that you've got to figure a stone out, but few of them say what to look for (besides the sensation of suction when finishing on water). Even the archival discussions on coticule.be are often frustratingly vague in this regard.

They're probably vague because what works for them and their stone might not work for you and yours. I have a lot of coticules and each one is unique. One is a vintage that's softish, pretty slow on slurry and slurry dulls a bit more than most. I've had best results with it using very precise and frequent one drop dilutions and adding a bit of pressure on the last dilutions and at the beginning of the water only laps. It works great under running water but I don't do that often. Another stone I have, an Ol preu LV is hard and fast and I can dilute very sloppy with it and stop on a light slurry, strop and shave. The LV is easier to use, but I doubt anyone could tell a difference in the edge from it and the softer stone mentioned.
It's mainly trial and error and practice.
As far as La Grise go, I've only had one and it was a good stone. Scott, who is a very accomplished coticule user has told me that one of the best cotis he's ever used was a la Grise, so there's that.

 

[gary haywood]

I have tried only a hand full of times the la grise. They are in general slow to moderate with slurry. They actually seem to have little slurry dulling. Seem that slow with water, I,m not sure if they actually do that much. Nice stones to work with.

for some reason i,ve not reached the keenest I desire for my beard type. I once had a chap who sent me a razor honed with the la grise?
he said he mowed down a three week beard with the edge he sent me.

when I received the razor , I checked out the Hht and it was poor. Any how I shaved with the razor and it was terrible not keen never mind smooth, pulled and tugged.

Part of of the problem is what's shave ready to some of us is not to others . I,ve not hit the max with any la grise I tried , when I do if I do I will let you guys no. It seems to me when I hit water stages nothing happens, I,ve tried under running water no difference .

i have some la grise I will defanatly give them another go.

 

[Doc226]

I have tried only a hand full of times the la grise. They are in general slow to moderate with slurry. They actually seem to have little slurry dulling. Seem that slow with water, I,m not sure if they actually do that much. Nice stones to work with.

for some reason i,ve not reached the keenest I desire for my beard type. I once had a chap who sent me a razor honed with the la grise?
he said he mowed down a three week beard with the edge he sent me.

when I received the razor , I checked out the Hht and it was poor. Any how I shaved with the razor and it was terrible not keen never mind smooth, pulled and tugged.

Part of of the problem is what's shave ready to some of us is not to others . I,ve not hit the max with any la grise I tried , when I do if I do I will let you guys no. It seems to me when I hit water stages nothing happens, I,ve tried under running water no difference .

i have some la grise I will defanatly give them another go.

Thank you for weighing in Gary

 

[147_Grain]

They're probably vague because what works for them and their stone might not work for you and yours. I have a lot of coticules and each one is unique. One is a vintage that's softish, pretty slow on slurry and slurry dulls a bit more than most. I've had best results with it using very precise and frequent one drop dilutions and adding a bit of pressure on the last dilutions and at the beginning of the water only laps. It works great under running water but I don't do that often. Another stone I have, an Ol preu LV is hard and fast and I can dilute very sloppy with it and stop on a light slurry, strop and shave. The LV is easier to use, but I doubt anyone could tell a difference in the edge from it and the softer stone mentioned.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the terminology here, but it seems like you've just described a technique that works on one of your stones, rather than the 'tells' of that stone.

To clarify: my understanding is that stones give some sort of characteristic feedback - whether it be auditory or tactile - that you can use to tell that you're getting somewhere or that you've maxed out your keenness at your current stage, and that while each stone may have different tells there are some common ones that are reasonable things to look for as you learn a stone. As an example, I've been told that a sensation of suction when honing on water is a common (universal?) tell that you've gotten about all the keenness you're going to get from that stone. Bayamontate alludes to paying attention to what the stone is saying "at the sensory level", which tends to reinforce the understanding that I have, but I don't know what sounds or tactile sensations are good ones or bad ones. Are there some common ones besides suction that I'm unaware of? Or is every coticule completely different in its feedback with no commonality between any two stones, and the only way to map sensations to good or bad things going on with the edge trial and error? Or is my understanding of what a 'tell' is wrong? Thanks!


PS - I don't mean to sound too frustrated, I bought my one coticule with the intention of using it as a prefinisher rather than a finisher and I'm reasonably satisfied with its performance in that role so far, I would just like to get better with the tools I have, and I'm especially interested in any signs there may be that I've maxed out the current stage and it's time to dilute more or move from diluted slurry to clean water because my current technique of "do stuff for a little while then see if it pops arm hairs noticeably better and move on if performance seems to have plateaued" is kind of unsatisfying.

 

[aephilli]

....my current technique of "do stuff for a little while then see if it pops arm hairs noticeably better and move on if performance seems to have plateaued" is kind of unsatisfying.

^^^^^ this ^^^^^^

 

[Brianskeet]

I should start this by saying that I am not in Gary's league with a coticule, but I do own a fair number of La Grise hones and have gotten good performance with them. Seven currently. When I started coticule honing everything out there said weight of the blade, weight of the blade blah blah blah. It nearly broke me of coticule honing until at Gary's urging I threw some pressure to my La Grise hones. Ding ding ding! We have a winner! If you are fighting a La Grise hone my suggestion would be throw some pressure to it. Now this has to be balanced with the blade you are trying to hone. Obviously an 8/8 extra full hollow is not going to respond to the same pressure that a quarter hollow will. The blade will flex and ruin your efforts. I don't lighten up on the pressure till I am down to water only and even then I don't go all the way down to true weight of the blade strokes. Since I know that I am using more pressure, when I get to water only strokes I rinse the stone more often. I believe that long before you have enough auto slurry to see it still exists and needs to be rinsed off often. Totaly agree with Gary that the majority of La Grise hones tend to be on the slower side of things. I compensate for this with half X strokes only going to standard X strokes when I am very near the finish.

 

[buca3152]

This "weight of the razor" thing is nonsense IMO. Regardless of what Im working on. Honing is controlled removal and polishing of steel. You need abrasives and pressure. Zero pressure is zero change to the edge. Not talking about excessive crazy pressure but you need something going on. I never do weight of the razor. And a pane of glass is more than capable of honing a razor. It may take you days but you can for sure! Thats how I feel about slow stones.

 

[Jnatcat]

This "weight of the razor" thing is nonsense IMO. Regardless of what Im working on. Honing is controlled removal and polishing of steel. You need abrasives and pressure. Zero pressure is zero change to the edge. Not talking about excessive crazy pressure but you need something going on. I never do weight of the razor. And a pane of glass is more than capable of honing a razor. It may take you days but you can for sure! Thats how I feel about slow stones.

I will have to agree with you Sir, i have only been honing a few months and getting ready for my first coticule but with the Naniwa SS' s I have I initially used weight of blade only and spent a ton of time at the bench trying to get an edge, I was able to do it but took many strokes so I thought WTH ? so I applied what I would call equal pressure across the blade (I hone with two hands) and was able to bring a test shaver to shave ready fairly quickly and this works for me so I will have to start over when I get a coticule.

 

[Alum of Potash]

All is in the gesture
I've got a big-*** la grise
That's given me nothing but pleasure

 

[zanzibarstoilet]

finding just the right amount of pressure's not always easy, and that amount can surely be varied for different hones/blade
with coticules I generally find softer ones want more pressure than hard glassy stones

 

[kcb5150]

The pieces I have like a little pressure but give a good result.