I second those for cutting stones. I have even cut really hard Charnley Forest stone with those.
Coticule love... show off your rock
- Thread starter Drybonz
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I second those for cutting stones. I have even cut really hard Charnley Forest stone with those.
I am really enjoying your posts - thanks for sharing!
A carbide grit hacksaw blade by stanley works very good too, around $8.
Thank you.
Yes, these are better because the wire saw has a very large kerf width.
Last stone for a while. A stone out of this world (250x56x27mm). This stone is not a LPB. It is supersmooth, almost like a glass plate. Super fine with slurry and with water, I would rate it as a 16k stone or even more.
I am not sure, but I believe these stones are not from veins, that are known from Ol´Preu or Regné. Maybe they are from other mines that were run by Mr. Burton. Does anyone know something about this vein?
Hi Seb,
very nice example you have there. Your stone is a typical La Dressante layer, which is undoubtedly one oft he best coticule layers. Very fast and quite fine, producing excellent razor edges. The red taint and the manganese dots and lines are typical for La Dressante. The Dressante layer existe in both deposits of the coticule area that means the stones could basically come from any of the old quarries.
The Dressante layer delivers some of the best but also nicest coticules in general. So most of (if not all) the kosher coticules that Maurice Celis sells nowadays are from the Dressante layer (pure white stones - but also such with a red taint, which are also considerred kosher, if the surface is without faults). And there are the beautiful tiger striped Dressante stones. And of course this ones, that you showed in your post.
I got a stone that is nearly identical to yours. Of course the manganese lines are somehow different, but it fits perfectly in appearance, color and size. It might be a sister to yours and maybe once came from the same batch.
Regards Peter
Set out to lap the coticule this morning. The stone had a really big dish in it.
At first I was planning on cutting off the edges to save the yellow side. After examining it it was clear that no matter what I did I would lap off into the bbw. Set off on the sidewalk to rough work, took a while to do but I was slowly getting there.
Finally finished it and will clean it up more with the atoma 1200 and then some slurry stones.
Finally finished it and will clean it up more with the atoma 1200 and then some slurry stones.
Hi Peter,
Thanks for your post. Nice to see the sister of my stone. These two would win every beauty contest, wouldn´t they? Funny enough, the gentleman who sold the stone to me said, it had heavily included material. I saw the gems of gems of the professional honer, these stones are super clean and free of any manganese, maybe a very small line at the edge. But I can guarantee, that this stone produces perfect shaving edges and is free of any toxic inclusions.
Kind regards Sebastian
Well done and congratulations! One of the biggest coticule bench stones I have ever seen. I hope it is very fine and will hone you razors very well. Good luck.
Thanks. I will be putting it through the tests later today.
Couldn’t wait, put it through the paces.
Did 100 water only laps on the le grelot razor. Razor was previously finished on a jnat and ark, after the laps the edge was a downgrade but still very sharp.
I don’t think I’ll try a dullicot or unicot with this coti since some parts are pretty thin and I don’t want to wear it out too much.
Did 100 water only laps on the le grelot razor. Razor was previously finished on a jnat and ark, after the laps the edge was a downgrade but still very sharp.
I don’t think I’ll try a dullicot or unicot with this coti since some parts are pretty thin and I don’t want to wear it out too much.
Some further tests with this stone show, that it is an ultra fine polisher. The surface of the stone was sanded with 800 w/d and a slurrystone. The Japanese knife is very gentle to stones, like a big razor. It has a very large contact area. It slides like on ice on this stone. There is no black swarf visible, even after some minutes of honing. It takes a while to polish all the visible scratches out, that are left from a coarser stone.
The knife reaches an unbelievable sharpness and gets a mirror polish without any scratches left. It is much finer than coticules, I have bought the last years and finer than a Gokumyo 20k for comparison.
Speed is relative with this very hard coticules. When sanded with a 400 diamond plate, it will cut very fast. When the surface is honed with fine sandpaper, they are only polishers. But not all hard coticules are that fine. Some can left jagged edges although they look very clean, and some are ultra fine and have some inclusions like manganese. Only a test shows the quality of a coticule.
The knife reaches an unbelievable sharpness and gets a mirror polish without any scratches left. It is much finer than coticules, I have bought the last years and finer than a Gokumyo 20k for comparison.
Speed is relative with this very hard coticules. When sanded with a 400 diamond plate, it will cut very fast. When the surface is honed with fine sandpaper, they are only polishers. But not all hard coticules are that fine. Some can left jagged edges although they look very clean, and some are ultra fine and have some inclusions like manganese. Only a test shows the quality of a coticule.
Pink, salmon flush (like in your last picture) are the common patterns you see on certain La Rose and Old Rock coticules. They can be very, very fine. I'm told it's associated with a particular modern vein as well, but I can't recall which. I've not encountered a stone like you describe in that size yet (I have several smaller ones). Very nice.
There are also the finest of the finest Coticules up to a size of 10x3. But I have heard that today they are no longer available in this format and in the very best quality. Even today, certain master craftsmen are dependent on these stones. For example, manufacturers of microtomes and resection knives. I think the stones were sorted out earlier for such professions. Maybe this is still the case today.
The LaDressante layer is beside the LaVeinette and some scarcer layers that are not exploited yet, the finest of the coticule layers. The diametre of the garnets is around 10 microns, whereas for example the diameter of LaVerte and LaGrise is around 20 microns or even higher. So diameter in natural stones is not equal to grit size! but at least it gives an indication of the fineness of the layer.
Regards Peter
Regards Peter
Yes, the size of the spessartite garnets can vary greatly in coticules. Here you can even see them with the eye in a Les Petas stone. Correct slurry stone - home of the famous Belgian Coticule Whetstone
I do not know the garnet size of my stones, but you might be right with your statement of 10 to 20 micron in coticules that are mined today. But the garnets are beads, so the contact area with the steel is much less than the diameter of the abrassive.
I am sure, the garnets can be much smaller than 10 micron. But I do not think that it is necessary to hone a razor with such stones. For shaving, a 8k to 12k edge is enough. Most of the real fine coticules are pretty slow, like ultra hard Arkansas stones. The vast majority of straight razor users would not be happy with these stones, because you will need other stones before.
Another point is that the mining of coticules is verifiable since Gaius Plinius Secundus Maior. He lived about 1950 years ago. It would be silly to believe that the best stones are still in there after almost 2000 years of mining.
I asked AC for a La Dressante several years ago. They told me that they have no Dressante and this is still the case.
The company where I got my stones, bought the last coticules about 30 years ago. I am sure these stones are handselected, not just extra-extra. They had an offer of new stones since than. But they were not satisfied with the quality and did not buy them. I am sure these stones were from the new mine. Thats why my seller said that coticules are depleted.
I do not know the garnet size of my stones, but you might be right with your statement of 10 to 20 micron in coticules that are mined today. But the garnets are beads, so the contact area with the steel is much less than the diameter of the abrassive.
I am sure, the garnets can be much smaller than 10 micron. But I do not think that it is necessary to hone a razor with such stones. For shaving, a 8k to 12k edge is enough. Most of the real fine coticules are pretty slow, like ultra hard Arkansas stones. The vast majority of straight razor users would not be happy with these stones, because you will need other stones before.
Another point is that the mining of coticules is verifiable since Gaius Plinius Secundus Maior. He lived about 1950 years ago. It would be silly to believe that the best stones are still in there after almost 2000 years of mining.
I asked AC for a La Dressante several years ago. They told me that they have no Dressante and this is still the case.
The company where I got my stones, bought the last coticules about 30 years ago. I am sure these stones are handselected, not just extra-extra. They had an offer of new stones since than. But they were not satisfied with the quality and did not buy them. I am sure these stones were from the new mine. Thats why my seller said that coticules are depleted.
I don't believe it's impossible to get top quality coticules mined today. They aren't picking up leftovers from mines that existed 2000 years ago, they're digging deeper and in new areas. Surely there are top quality stones in the ground that haven't been pulled yet.
That said, I'd agree that I've had VASTLY better vintage stones than modern ones... but I've also owned hundreds of vintage ones and maybe a dozen modern ones.
Reasons? I suspect there are a few:
1. Fast and coarse coticules were valued in the past. While they aren't great for razor finishing, they are great for just about everything else, and may have even been considered the better stones vs the hard and slow ones that I prize. Because of this, they were pulled for other uses and NOT sold as razor/microtome/scalpel hones often.
2. Fast and coarse coticules tend to be soft and wear faster. Survivor bias means the slower, harder, FINER coticules stuck around.
3. With a much bigger demand/market for quality razor hones (dozens of labels claiming to be the best), and the much higher amount of manual labor involved in producing one of these hones, there was incentive to pay very close attention to what was being marketed as a razor coticule then. Now, while Ardennes will try to pick you out a good hone for razors if you ask them, I doubt anywhere near the care is or can be put into it versus when the mines were sorting stones for a Pike or Torrey or any barber supply/mail order contract that was going to be buying hundreds and thousands of stones from them.
4. And yes, I think a lot of veins that were choice have been lost or exhausted, and replaced by increased mining in the easier to access/produce veins (Such as La grise/verte) which might not compare. It doesn't mean there aren't coticules as good or better than top notch vintages still down there... just that they aren't making up a significant sample of what is being exploited now.
That said, I'd agree that I've had VASTLY better vintage stones than modern ones... but I've also owned hundreds of vintage ones and maybe a dozen modern ones.
Reasons? I suspect there are a few:
1. Fast and coarse coticules were valued in the past. While they aren't great for razor finishing, they are great for just about everything else, and may have even been considered the better stones vs the hard and slow ones that I prize. Because of this, they were pulled for other uses and NOT sold as razor/microtome/scalpel hones often.
2. Fast and coarse coticules tend to be soft and wear faster. Survivor bias means the slower, harder, FINER coticules stuck around.
3. With a much bigger demand/market for quality razor hones (dozens of labels claiming to be the best), and the much higher amount of manual labor involved in producing one of these hones, there was incentive to pay very close attention to what was being marketed as a razor coticule then. Now, while Ardennes will try to pick you out a good hone for razors if you ask them, I doubt anywhere near the care is or can be put into it versus when the mines were sorting stones for a Pike or Torrey or any barber supply/mail order contract that was going to be buying hundreds and thousands of stones from them.
4. And yes, I think a lot of veins that were choice have been lost or exhausted, and replaced by increased mining in the easier to access/produce veins (Such as La grise/verte) which might not compare. It doesn't mean there aren't coticules as good or better than top notch vintages still down there... just that they aren't making up a significant sample of what is being exploited now.
Very well said. Two of my stones from AC are real gems, a La Veinette and a super hard Les Petas. That is the proof that there are still excellent stones in the Ardennes. I have some vintage stones, that I would not call razor hones, they are very fast but not that fine. And sure, also some new stones are not that fine. They can not be shave tested, but I am sure you will get a nice stone from AC when you ask for it. They are very kind.
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Something is a bit strange. I have some stones, La Grise for example, where you can see some orange or red garnets. It might seem that this stone is not so fine, because of the large visible garnets. But I get perfect shaving edges from my La Grise when honed with a light touch.
I had a very clean vintage coti, without any texture or beads visible. It was a very coarse stone, a shave was not possible. Thats why I say only a test, not the look can classify a stone.
I had a very clean vintage coti, without any texture or beads visible. It was a very coarse stone, a shave was not possible. Thats why I say only a test, not the look can classify a stone.
Probably a matter of the substrate being just the right consistency to hold onto them when a flat face is up (the razor puts little sheer force on the garnet), but release it when it's got a corner up (letting the razor put much more sheer force onto it). I think with the coticules that do have larger garnets, it can be very much a balancing act of technique as well as the other variables in the stone deciding whether you've got a razor finisher or one of those "very fast but not that fine" hones.
I recall a couple 9-10x2-2.5" hones from the late vintage era (40's-70's I'd guess), that could bevel with little or no slurry. Crazy coticules, but not ideal for trying to finish a razor on. It wasn't impossible, but they clearly were meant for other tools... one I recall having garnets in the 50micron+ range. They made me wary of that size coticule until I started to get the microtome stones like what you're buying, which are in that size range as well, but often are extremely fine (One I sold recently was a 10x2.5" La Veinette that was by FAR the finest LV I've ever used)... the buyer is a guy who spends thousands of dollars on hones on a seemingly regular basis and told me it was superior to any coticule he'd used before.
I recall a couple 9-10x2-2.5" hones from the late vintage era (40's-70's I'd guess), that could bevel with little or no slurry. Crazy coticules, but not ideal for trying to finish a razor on. It wasn't impossible, but they clearly were meant for other tools... one I recall having garnets in the 50micron+ range. They made me wary of that size coticule until I started to get the microtome stones like what you're buying, which are in that size range as well, but often are extremely fine (One I sold recently was a 10x2.5" La Veinette that was by FAR the finest LV I've ever used)... the buyer is a guy who spends thousands of dollars on hones on a seemingly regular basis and told me it was superior to any coticule he'd used before.
Do any of you guys ever find a KILLER finishing Coticule but it’s like a #5 bout and barely long enough to finish a razor on? Or is it just me with tiny rocks and everyone else here is finding Coticules too large to fit on their bathroom counters...
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