Is it possible to finish an edge on a Coticule as sharp as a Feather DE or a Feather Shavette Ps 20 blade in reality? I red that in theory it should be possible but in reality few people can do that? can a Coticule edge be sharp enough to give a really close shave? How much honing skills do you need to have?
Coticule edge vs Feather blade
- Thread starter rb120134
- Start date
Oh this ought to be fun lol!
So I’ll say this, there’s a TON of variables in play here. Can it be done? I think so. But aside from the skill, you’d need the right stone, & the right blade. I’ve got two Coticules, I couldn’t do it I don’t think on my stones... I don’t think.
So I’ll say this, there’s a TON of variables in play here. Can it be done? I think so. But aside from the skill, you’d need the right stone, & the right blade. I’ve got two Coticules, I couldn’t do it I don’t think on my stones... I don’t think.
kelbro
Alfred Spatchcock
I was not able to. Doesn't mean it can't be done. Feather edges are what I use as a standard to evaluate my hone jobs. Only a few steel/stone combos have ever come close.
Absolutely, a coticule edge can most definitely deliver a really close shave, BBS even. You need the right stone and the right honer.
I don't think it will be as sharp (whatever that means) as a feather blade-it does not need to be
The closest shaves I've had off a coticule have been when I used lather on the stone. Otherwise, I need to end with Welsh slate after a coticule to get what I want. Perhaps that says something about too much pressure being applied as the lather adds a bit of cushion.
My sentiments exactly and I don't think you need to be a honing guru either. If you know how to hone well and have been doing so for some time then a very good Coticule will give you a hell of an edge - comparable to any excellent hone there is without having to jump through hoops to get there.
On my coti final step is with oil, generous amounts, and no pressure. This makes the edge more keen than finishing on lather or running water. In fact, the edge was as keen as any of my other finishers. Sharp as a feather?? Probably not, but it does a fools pass (upper lip atg) with little effort. A fools pass is my go-to test for sharpness these days. If a blade can't do a fools pass then it hasn't been maxed out.
I can hone a razor and make it even sharper than a Feather blade, but the Coticule I have is nowhere close to being able to do so.
The challenge is not in making a keen edge, but one that is keen without being harsh. For me, a Feather blade is great on the 1st shave, pretty good on the second shave, but I cannot complete the third shave without my face getting irritated..
As you hone, the edge of the razor becomes thinner, the edge becomes sharper, but you can get to a point where the edge is so thin that it loses structural integrity and starts to develop microchips. My tough beard likes very keen edges, but my sensitive skin will not tolerate microchips. Thus, I hone until I get an edge that will treetop arm hair at 1/2 inch and then further refine the edge with pasted/sprayed strops followed by multiple laps on fabric and leather to get an edge that is keen, yet smooth. Unfortunately, such an edge will only last about five shaves before I have to go back and refresh the edge.
The challenge is not in making a keen edge, but one that is keen without being harsh. For me, a Feather blade is great on the 1st shave, pretty good on the second shave, but I cannot complete the third shave without my face getting irritated..
As you hone, the edge of the razor becomes thinner, the edge becomes sharper, but you can get to a point where the edge is so thin that it loses structural integrity and starts to develop microchips. My tough beard likes very keen edges, but my sensitive skin will not tolerate microchips. Thus, I hone until I get an edge that will treetop arm hair at 1/2 inch and then further refine the edge with pasted/sprayed strops followed by multiple laps on fabric and leather to get an edge that is keen, yet smooth. Unfortunately, such an edge will only last about five shaves before I have to go back and refresh the edge.
i have always read that technically via edge measurement/ apex thinness, a DE blade would be technically sharper than straight razor?
i will still occasionally use 1/2 DE blade in shavette (for touch ups), most DE blades feel sharper and naturally feather is the sharpest of the lot. i also like the shorter blade for difficult areas. I doubt i will ever hone a SR as sharp as a feather but i try. Shaving with sharper DE blade keeps me inspired to hone better, like reaching for the brass ring. I still prefer the smoothness of SR honed edge.
i will still occasionally use 1/2 DE blade in shavette (for touch ups), most DE blades feel sharper and naturally feather is the sharpest of the lot. i also like the shorter blade for difficult areas. I doubt i will ever hone a SR as sharp as a feather but i try. Shaving with sharper DE blade keeps me inspired to hone better, like reaching for the brass ring. I still prefer the smoothness of SR honed edge.
A feather blade scored 25? iirc on the sharpness tester. I had a coticule edge scoring 04 before it failed because the edge was too sharp for the tester. Not even a question. A good razor edge is sharper than a feather. An average razor edge is in the same ballpark as a feather.
The guys finishing on .0001 micron diamonds forged inside My Olympus are probably getting edges MANY TIMES sharper than a feather... the edge doesn't stay that sharp under any amount of use, but it's getting there.
Razor users have this crazy mentality where an uncomfortable shave gets blamed on something being "too sharp". The mental gymnastics is that a cutting tool is too good at what it does to do it properly. This mentality is so embedded into razor users minds, it'll probably never be dug out. For me "too sharp" means the edge fails in the shave because the steel, angle and finish add up to more than they can hold for a shave, it happens. Not often with good razors, but if you're pushing the bleeding edge of edge angles and the steels not especially hard, or if you're taking edges to submicron finishes with less than blade weight, you'll see it from time to time. If something IRRITATES you without the edge failing, that's not too sharp... quite the opposite.
A cutting tool has one job. Cut where you put it with MINIMAL DISRUPTING OF THE SURROUNDING MATERIAL. That is what sharp is and does. Irritation is not minimal disrupting of the surrounding material. An irritating edge that you (not anyone specifically, the universal you) really want to be sharp isn't "too sharp", you're just wrong in thinking you made it sharp enough. Sorry, but that's the case. I've worked with dozens of people who when asked to slice ripe tomatoes would grab a breadknife. Why? It cuts. Sure it wrecks the tomato doing it. But it does it, and it's easy, and it takes no maintenance. Contrast that with actually using a properly sharpened knife and getting window-pane thin slices, if you like, that aren't seeping every drop of flavor and nutrient and juice the tomato had on your cutting board. What I didn't see was the guys who liked the bread knives trying to argue that the reason their tomatoes were wrecked was because the bread knife was "too sharp". But that's not even a common mentality with razor honing... that's practically the given understanding. Don't like a high grit synthetic edge? It's "too sharp". Shave with your brand new Jnat that you got for a steal on eBay and your face is bleeding from every pore afterwards? Too sharp. People won't just admit that a bad edge is bad. And not because it's somehow so good it's bad. It's just bad.
The guys finishing on .0001 micron diamonds forged inside My Olympus are probably getting edges MANY TIMES sharper than a feather... the edge doesn't stay that sharp under any amount of use, but it's getting there.
Razor users have this crazy mentality where an uncomfortable shave gets blamed on something being "too sharp". The mental gymnastics is that a cutting tool is too good at what it does to do it properly. This mentality is so embedded into razor users minds, it'll probably never be dug out. For me "too sharp" means the edge fails in the shave because the steel, angle and finish add up to more than they can hold for a shave, it happens. Not often with good razors, but if you're pushing the bleeding edge of edge angles and the steels not especially hard, or if you're taking edges to submicron finishes with less than blade weight, you'll see it from time to time. If something IRRITATES you without the edge failing, that's not too sharp... quite the opposite.
A cutting tool has one job. Cut where you put it with MINIMAL DISRUPTING OF THE SURROUNDING MATERIAL. That is what sharp is and does. Irritation is not minimal disrupting of the surrounding material. An irritating edge that you (not anyone specifically, the universal you) really want to be sharp isn't "too sharp", you're just wrong in thinking you made it sharp enough. Sorry, but that's the case. I've worked with dozens of people who when asked to slice ripe tomatoes would grab a breadknife. Why? It cuts. Sure it wrecks the tomato doing it. But it does it, and it's easy, and it takes no maintenance. Contrast that with actually using a properly sharpened knife and getting window-pane thin slices, if you like, that aren't seeping every drop of flavor and nutrient and juice the tomato had on your cutting board. What I didn't see was the guys who liked the bread knives trying to argue that the reason their tomatoes were wrecked was because the bread knife was "too sharp". But that's not even a common mentality with razor honing... that's practically the given understanding. Don't like a high grit synthetic edge? It's "too sharp". Shave with your brand new Jnat that you got for a steal on eBay and your face is bleeding from every pore afterwards? Too sharp. People won't just admit that a bad edge is bad. And not because it's somehow so good it's bad. It's just bad.
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Yes it can be done, just have to have a properly heat cycled and quenched blade and have the right Coticule/know how to get the most out of your Coticule.
“Sharp” seems to be up for interpretation or re-defining using other equally nebulous terms as anyone sees fit.
“Sharp” seems to be up for interpretation or re-defining using other equally nebulous terms as anyone sees fit.
Aren't de blades like 19.5-25 degree bevel angle typically? Feathers and kai feel like foil edges to me on the first shave and second pass foils on subsequents. I think a lot of the perceived performance from de blades comes from whatever coatings the manufacturer is implementing and once that is worn off the true character is revealed. Best de blade I ever tried were personna 74 by far. The gulf between that blade and any other is quite large on the de front.
I think the other thing you have to consider is usable peak sharpness. De blades fade horribly which makes me think they aren't particularly hard given how much they flex and can be bent and hold the bend at the cutting edge. Again, relying on coatings as the crutch. Any straight or se wedge type blade will hold form far longer and come right back up with regular stropping. Anyone with a bit of practice and a good blade should be able to mop the floor with any de blade.
I think I agree. If someone is used to shaving with a dull blade and then they get a sharp blade, their technique is based on dull. The result is a cut they blame on the blade and not their technique.
The last DE shave I did was, of course, easy and very fast, but it was absolutely not closer than a straight shave. DEs are just super fast to use with minimal risk of cuts but the shaves are not closer and are no where near as satisfying. DEs are throw away blades. Any blade manufacturer will make them as cheaply as possible, naturally. I have never understood how anyone gets more than 3-5 shaves on a DE blade. A month on one blade??? Unfathomable to me.
Ive always wondered how the de hones worked. Ive seen coticule and Thuri ones so I’d love comparing a de with a natural finish vs the production edges stropped on high grit paste and coated. Some day.
I’ve got a deep rock DE hone that I’ll send you to play with when you’re ready for the Norton. My guess is it will not work very well, but you never know
You would probably want to buy some carbon treets to try one of those. The clamshell ones with the string pull and rotating crox blocks work ok.
Chan Eil Whiskers
Fumbling about.
I can get a blade very very sharp on a coticule. Well, let's make that some blades, sometimes, and on my coticule, using oil. Still, I have no way of knowing it's as sharp as a Feather. Even though I can compare it head to head with a Feather barber razor I use Prolines in that device. I'm not a huge fan of the edges on Feather blades.
If I had to guess a Feather is sharper than anything I can usually produce, but I'm sure there are honers who laugh at a Feather edge. See the threads a while back on the Edge On Up instrument for objective data.
Happy shaves,
Jim
If I had to guess a Feather is sharper than anything I can usually produce, but I'm sure there are honers who laugh at a Feather edge. See the threads a while back on the Edge On Up instrument for objective data.
Happy shaves,
Jim
