Coticule difficulties

[Oscroft]

Over the past couple of months I've acquired these three coticules (numbered in the order I got them)...



When I got no 1 I did a small Wade & Butcher razor on it using a slurry dilution approach, though not strictly following any published dilucot instructions. And I got a pretty decent edge - not the sharpest I've had, but very smooth.

And I had another couple of tries with 1 and 2, adding a unicot ending - and that got me my best result.

I then read up on dilucot proper, and also decided I needed a slightly bigger stone because I find early work that needs any pressure quite tricky on a narrow stone (and any excuse will do, eh?) - the two small ones are approx 175x40mm.

So I got no 3, 200x60mm, from Eden Web Shops, and followed the dilucot instructions at coticlue.be on the same W&B razor - excluding the bevel-setting stage, as it was already set.

Big fail! I'd have had more chance of shaving with the stone itself than the razor. Never mind tree-topping hairs, if I held a few leg hairs taut the razor simply wouldn't cut them - it just bounced off. I tried a sharpie test in case there was actually something wrong with the bevel, but a couple of gentle passes on the stone with just water cleared all the ink.

I went back to the start and tried again, and the result was the same - a really dull edge.

For my next attempt a couple of days later, I went back to coticule no 1 as I know I'd had a reasonable result from that. After following the coticule.be dilucot instructions again, I had an edge that would tree-top hairs a bit but not very well. Better than my stone no 3 results, but not as good as my original stone no 1 result.

It seems my ad-hoc banging around got me better results than following the proper instructions. The trouble is, it's not easily reproducible - and I found the coticule experience a bit frustrating as there's no feedback to tell you when each dilution is done (unlike with synthetics where I can feel when it's time to move on).

What I did notice is that both stones feel equally hard, and no 1 seems faster than no 3 - the slurry darkened with swarf more quickly. So maybe with no 3 I just need more strokes at each dilution - but I'd be running out of slurry in the early stages.

And maybe I need more laps on no 1 too - or maybe I did too many when following the proper instructions and actually need fewer? At the moment, it seems to me as if I need to be just making random changes to my technique and hoping I'll hit on something good.

So, any suggestions how I should proceed? I know you can't tell me what to do with my specific stones, but just suggestions for directions would be welcome.

(I should add that a kind person here in the UK has offered to check my coticule edge and then put on a Veinette edge of his own for me, but I already know what my current edge is like - a bit dull)

 

[jpcwon]

It seems my ad-hoc banging around got me better results than following the proper instructions.

That's exactly my experience too! I have found that using these methods as guidelines rather than absolutes yields me better results. Usually what I do is pull a few elements from each method to create my own routine. It can be frustrating at first, but eventually you will find what works best for you...The trick is to recognize when you have a successful edge, and try & repeat whatever it is that you did to reach that point. Eventually you will have your own method that's more repeatable..

How are you finishing? One thing I've had good luck with is finishing with 40-50 x strokes on "misty slurry" So you would dilute down to water via dilucot, the rinse the stone completely. Then, you will rub your slurry stone a few times over the base stone to create almost a slurry-tinged water. I then finish on that misty slurry...seems to work very well for me, so maybe you could try it? It sounds like you're getting most of the way there, so we just need to figure out how to get that last bit of keeness out of the edge...I'm sure the other guys will chime in with other/better advice....

 

[Slash McCoy]

Have you tried finishing on the big stone under running water, or with lather after cleaning the stone?

You lapped it, right? Lap it on a whole sheet of wet/dry paper. If you think it is probably already pretty flat, go with 600 or 800 grit. That will verify the flatness when the grid disappears, but not rough up the stone. If the grid doesn't look like it will completely go away pretty quick, then you might drop down to 320 grit or so.

If you start out on the big rock with just clear water, how many laps does it take to self-slurry to the point where the slurry is visible? You might have an auto-slurry problem, but it can be overcome with aggressive dilution in the final stages and finishing under running water. You might also want to try honing on the BBW side. Treat it just like yellow coti. Raise a slurry with a slurry stone and progressively dilute to clear water. It is a lot slower... typically for me it takes about 3x time on the BBW but YMMV some guys barely notice a difference. Of course the BBW side needs to be lapped flat, too.

Also try a drop of dish soap and lighter pressure. Add more soap as you dilute the slurry.

Coticules can be tempermental. You have to kind of fiddle with them and try different stuff when one doesn't work quite the same as everyone says it should. Any coti can give you a usable edge on a razor, I believe. It is just a matter of coaxing the optimum performance out of the stone by tweaking all your variables.

Sometimes you just got to back off and let it alone vor a while. It won't crumble into coti dust from lack of attention. Answer the call of the film for a while, and revisit the coti refreshed and reinvigorated, later, if you are feeling frustrated.

 

[DJKELLY]

Most coticules are suitable for razors and technique can make even the ones that are barely suitable work. Others are not, we just don't see them very often.

One very simple test that Disburden came up with is the feel of the stone before it is slurried. If you can feel a smoothness difference between the three stones, the smoothest will probably give you the finest edge without using advanced techniques.

Coticules are also very prone microburrs or trash on the edge when coming right off the stone, particularly in the slurry stages of dilucot. A great trick is to hone in jeans and give the blade six or seven laps on your weak side thigh with the fabric stretched after each couple of dilutions. I don't think you can do this too often, but it really doesn't take that much, either. I always do an hht at that point and it will usually see results, even in the early stages. Of course a fabric strop will do the same thing, but the point is, it is hard to get an hht off the stone until you are into the final stages of clear water or running water and stropping during the honing has always greatly sped up the process for me. After honing on a coticule, normal stropping will improve the edge by 1-2 points on the hanging hair test.

One caveat--I use quite a bit of pressure during honing by torquing the edge into the stone and moving the pressure point down the edge. You can witness the pressure point by how it wipes the surface and done correctly you can move it down the edge in one stroke.

As for advanced keenness techniques, there are a bunch, but they all do the same thing in allowing you to use your normal pressure and hold the edge away from the bulk of the cutting particles. The greatest improvement we saw was with wax from a candle or crayon rubbed onto the surface of the stone. Hard soap was right up there, too. Both gave super (hht 5)results. The easiest for me is a very small dollop of canned shave cream. This is done in the final stage only and can improve the edge easily to a hht 4+.

Others are spot on about making sure your coticule is well lapped. I would definitely use pencil marks in a grid to be sure. Later, Denny

 

[Gamma]

The 'proper instructions' aren't meant to be a 'recipe' or 'color by numbers' approach.


They're guidelines. The key is to understand edge development and to be able to sense it while honing.

One way to approach this is to take a known-good razor and try to refinish it. By limiting the range of honing that needs to be done, you may find it easier to learn how to see, hear, and feel what is going on at the stone. You may also learn how to read the stone's capabilities somewhat easier.

By attempting to only 'finish' the edge; If you go gently, and carefully - any edge degradation you may impart to the razor can be easily corrected.

 

[jpcwon]

Coticules are also very prone microburrs or trash on the edge when coming right off the stone, particularly in the slurry stages of dilucot. A great trick is to hone in jeans and give the blade six or seven laps on your weak side thigh with the fabric stretched after each couple of dilutions. I don't think you can do this too often, but it really doesn't take that much, either. I always do an hht at that point and it will usually see results, even in the early stages. Of course a fabric strop will do the same thing, but the point is, it is hard to get an hht off the stone until you are into the final stages of clear water or running water and stropping during the honing has always greatly sped up the process for me. After honing on a coticule, normal stropping will improve the edge by 1-2 points on the hanging hair test.

I do this quite a bit, but I don't use jeans. During dilucot, I will frequently strop on an old piece of Kanayama linen after several dilutions to kind of gauge where I'm at. Just 10-15 licks on the linen... Like Denny said, you can sometimes get an HHT by doing this...Usually I can see how much farther I need to go on the slurry before I move to finishing....

 

[Kentos]

I just keep adding a few drops of water on milky slurry every so many laps until the water is clear. Then a few minutes on water. Then strop it out on linen, then leather. I would say on my stone a coti edge is not quite sharp enough for me, so some laps on CBN helped a lot.

My only advice would be to make sure you don't have too much slurry after your bevel is set on the stone when you start your dilutions. A very thick slurry can very quickly dull your edge, after which the dilutions won't do anything.

 

[Brooksie967]

#2 is useless for sure, send it to me please Alan.

 

[BakerAndBadger]

I remember a post on here about refreshing your slurry and doing pigtails at the end of each stroke - there was a video of an Irish barber iirc. I tried that and it worked great - finishing on misty but FRESH slurry.

 

[daflorc]

I miss my coticules. I sold both of them in leu of faster-cutting options

 

[Oscroft]

Lot's of great help there folks, thanks. I'll take my time to work through the suggestions and reply...

How are you finishing? One thing I've had good luck with is finishing with 40-50 x strokes on "misty slurry" So you would dilute down to water via dilucot, the rinse the stone completely. Then, you will rub your slurry stone a few times over the base stone to create almost a slurry-tinged water. I then finish on that misty slurry...seems to work very well for me, so maybe you could try it? It sounds like you're getting most of the way there, so we just need to figure out how to get that last bit of keeness out of the edge...I'm sure the other guys will chime in with other/better advice....

I used plain water for about 50 x-strokes to finish, so I'll definitely give misty slurry a try, thanks.

Have you tried finishing on the big stone under running water, or with lather after cleaning the stone?

Not tried either - maybe surprising that I didn't try lather, seeing as I've tried it on just about every other stone I have

You lapped it, right? Lap it on a whole sheet of wet/dry paper. If you think it is probably already pretty flat, go with 600 or 800 grit. That will verify the flatness when the grid disappears, but not rough up the stone. If the grid doesn't look like it will completely go away pretty quick, then you might drop down to 320 grit or so.

Yep, it was pretty flat when I got it but I lapped it on 400 grit paper (I think - I'm struggling to remember now). I have some finer grits, so I'll give it a bit more with one of those.

If you start out on the big rock with just clear water, how many laps does it take to self-slurry to the point where the slurry is visible? You might have an auto-slurry problem, but it can be overcome with aggressive dilution in the final stages and finishing under running water.

Good question - I'll rub a razor on it tomorrow and find out.

You might also want to try honing on the BBW side. Treat it just like yellow coti. Raise a slurry with a slurry stone and progressively dilute to clear water. It is a lot slower... typically for me it takes about 3x time on the BBW but YMMV some guys barely notice a difference. Of course the BBW side needs to be lapped flat, too.

Haven't touched BBW yet, so I'll definitely try that and see what happens - I really don't mind slow stones. The big coticule is actually slate-backed (the two smaller ones are natural combos), but I also have a 200x60mm BBW/La Pyrénées combo, so that's the one I'll have a go on.

Also try a drop of dish soap and lighter pressure. Add more soap as you dilute the slurry.

That's something I've never tried with any stone yet - first time coming soon, I think.

 

[JHP]

One caveat--I use quite a bit of pressure during honing by torquing the edge into the stone and moving the pressure point down the edge. You can witness the pressure point by how it wipes the surface and done correctly you can move it down the edge in one stroke.

Hey Denny. How long do you maintain this pressure? Through the dilutions? Do you eventually move to lighter strokes? I feel as though some of my trouble is mastering pressure. Gary Haywood has been very helpful to me and has also talked about maintaining pressure like you advise. He has suggested that this pressure overcomes any slurry dulling. I think I'm struggling to know when to lighten up, and how much.

Thanks.

 

[Oscroft]

One very simple test that Disburden came up with is the feel of the stone before it is slurried. If you can feel a smoothness difference between the three stones, the smoothest will probably give you the finest edge without using advanced techniques.

Interestingly, I can feel a difference. The two smaller stones feel slightly smoother than the big one - not by much at all, but it is there. I think the first thing for me to do is lap it with finer grit paper.

A great trick is to hone in jeans and give the blade six or seven laps on your weak side thigh with the fabric stretched after each couple of dilutions.

Hmm, interesting - but wouldn't you lose the slurry like that, wiping it off on the denim? I actually made a point of not wiping the razor at all during the honing, specifically to avoid that. I guess I can remake the slurry at different dilutions though. It's definitely an option then, thanks.

One caveat--I use quite a bit of pressure during honing by torquing the edge into the stone and moving the pressure point down the edge. You can witness the pressure point by how it wipes the surface and done correctly you can move it down the edge in one stroke.

I've been using a bit of pressure, but not much - I'll vary it.

As for advanced keenness techniques, there are a bunch, but they all do the same thing in allowing you to use your normal pressure and hold the edge away from the bulk of the cutting particles. The greatest improvement we saw was with wax from a candle or crayon rubbed onto the surface of the stone. Hard soap was right up there, too. Both gave super (hht 5)results. The easiest for me is a very small dollop of canned shave cream. This is done in the final stage only and can improve the edge easily to a hht 4+.

Sounds like the same kind of thing as using lather or dish soap, only moreso - I'll try lather first, then keep the harder stuff in reserve

 

[Oscroft]

They're guidelines. The key is to understand edge development and to be able to sense it while honing.

Yes indeed, and that's really my problem so far, I have no sense of how it's going and no feel or feedback - just carry on to the end and then see if it works.

One way to approach this is to take a known-good razor and try to refinish it. By limiting the range of honing that needs to be done, you may find it easier to learn how to see, hear, and feel what is going on at the stone. You may also learn how to read the stone's capabilities somewhat easier.

By attempting to only 'finish' the edge; If you go gently, and carefully - any edge degradation you may impart to the razor can be easily corrected.

Yep, that sounds like a pretty good approach - I think it's been a mistake for me to start by trying a full progression all the way from just a bevel set.

At this point (and I might modify it after I've responded to other suggestions), I think my next actions will be to re-lap with finer grit and then try refinishing starting with a very light slurry.

 

[Oscroft]

My only advice would be to make sure you don't have too much slurry after your bevel is set on the stone when you start your dilutions. A very thick slurry can very quickly dull your edge, after which the dilutions won't do anything.

Now that is interesting - with the amount of dilutions people talk about, I was starting with quite a thick slurry to make sure it would last long enough. Again that supports the idea of re-lapping and then trying again towards the finishing end with light slurry.

#2 is useless for sure, send it to me please Alan.

Unfortunately it's illegal to ship coticules to Canada from here - very recent and (very) local by-law, I'm afraid

I remember a post on here about refreshing your slurry and doing pigtails at the end of each stroke - there was a video of an Irish barber iirc. I tried that and it worked great - finishing on misty but FRESH slurry.

If pigtails are what they sound like, that should be easy to try. And fresh misty slurry to finish is another option I'll try, thanks.

 

[Disburden]

Denny.

Your advise is always helpful. Id like to see thia torquing you speak of.

Most coticules are suitable for razors and technique can make even the ones that are barely suitable work. Others are not, we just don't see them very often.

One very simple test that Disburden came up with is the feel of the stone before it is slurried. If you can feel a smoothness difference between the three stones, the smoothest will probably give you the finest edge without using advanced techniques.

Coticules are also very prone microburrs or trash on the edge when coming right off the stone, particularly in the slurry stages of dilucot. A great trick is to hone in jeans and give the blade six or seven laps on your weak side thigh with the fabric stretched after each couple of dilutions. I don't think you can do this too often, but it really doesn't take that much, either. I always do an hht at that point and it will usually see results, even in the early stages. Of course a fabric strop will do the same thing, but the point is, it is hard to get an hht off the stone until you are into the final stages of clear water or running water and stropping during the honing has always greatly sped up the process for me. After honing on a coticule, normal stropping will improve the edge by 1-2 points on the hanging hair test.

One caveat--I use quite a bit of pressure during honing by torquing the edge into the stone and moving the pressure point down the edge. You can witness the pressure point by how it wipes the surface and done correctly you can move it down the edge in one stroke.

As for advanced keenness techniques, there are a bunch, but they all do the same thing in allowing you to use your normal pressure and hold the edge away from the bulk of the cutting particles. The greatest improvement we saw was with wax from a candle or crayon rubbed onto the surface of the stone. Hard soap was right up there, too. Both gave super (hht 5)results. The easiest for me is a very small dollop of canned shave cream. This is done in the final stage only and can improve the edge easily to a hht 4+.

Others are spot on about making sure your coticule is well lapped. I would definitely use pencil marks in a grid to be sure. Later, Denny

 

[Oscroft]

Denny.

Your advise is always helpful. Id like to see thia torquing you speak of.

I'm pretty sure I know what he means - a slight twisting force on the blade pushing the leading edge down, and a bit of a rocking motion from end to end, and you'll see where the blade is making contact in the tracks in the slurry.

 

[Disburden]

Oh, I know, but I am looking for new videos to watch!

 

[Oscroft]

Oh, I know, but I am looking for new videos to watch!

Ah, got you - yes, that would be handy!

 

[gary haywood]

Oh, I know, but I am looking for new videos to watch!

Maybe you could make one nick, love to see you in action with your coticule