coticule - argghhhh

[drfong]

Looking at buying a coticule - max spend of about $50, 20-30 would be ideal
I have big hands, like, massive - like cleavers.


Have some questions if someone could brain dump

Is it easier with a rectangular coticule?

What length and width should I be looking at?

Why the 2 colours on coticules?

Coticule or Coticule bout (the off cuts)

Belgian Coticules come in diff colors and look like they have diff grains - should I be looking out for something?

Can you over cuticle a blade?

 

[kirk 988]

i will clear up one thing i dont own a coti but il go ahead

the yellow is the coticule and the dark side underneath is either a slate or BBW backing to keep it strong.
i dont think you can over cook a blade on a natural stone.

with that price range i think that would limit you to a bout or a 4x2 stone but im not sure

 

[Wid]

Looking at buying a coticule - max spend of about $50, 20-30 would be ideal
I have big hands, like, massive - like cleavers.

A large coticule would far exceed your price range.

Have some questions if someone could brain dump

Is it easier with a rectangular coticule?

Yes, especially for a new honer.

What length and width should I be looking at?

The longer the better but in the price range you stated it will be impossible to buy a large coticule.

Why the 2 colours on coticules?

Some are natural combos and some are slate backed. The natural side can be used for honing while the slate backed can not.

Coticule or Coticule bout (the off cuts)

Depends, they both work fine.

Belgian Coticules come in diff colors and look like they have diff grains - should I be looking out for something?

Not as a beginner.

Can you over cuticle a blade?

​Not that I know of.

 

[Doc226]

​Not that I know of.

What he said. ^

For $50 you can get a bout, you can hone on it but it's not easy for a new honer to do so on a small one.

 

[Mike H]

I think you would want at least 40 X 150 rectangle, but a larger bout could work.

Here is a honing videos using bouts from The Superior Shave.

 

[SliceOfLife]

If you get a bout, get it from superior shave.

I bought a size 10 bout (biggest ardennes offered) direct from ardennes, paid more for it than a 175x50 would have cost me. I asked for a natural combo that was long and narrow and wound up receiving a bout that barely qualified for a size 9, much less size 10 and was damn near square. It was a beautiful natural combo and had THICK coti side (think it was almost an inch of coti)... but it didn't meet the dimensions I paid for and was as far from what I had requested with regards to shape as possible. Point being, you WANT to see what you're getting if you get a bout.

 

[drfong]

If you get a bout, get it from superior shave.

Glad you mentioned Superior Shave - I was planning on getting it from Jarrod.

I noticed that some of his bouts are nice, long and rectangular!

 

[danjared]

If you get a bout, get it from superior shave.

I bought a size 10 bout (biggest ardennes offered) direct from ardennes, paid more for it than a 175x50 would have cost me. I asked for a natural combo that was long and narrow and wound up receiving a bout that barely qualified for a size 9, much less size 10 and was damn near square. It was a beautiful natural combo and had THICK coti side (think it was almost an inch of coti)... but it didn't meet the dimensions I paid for and was as far from what I had requested with regards to shape as possible. Point being, you WANT to see what you're getting if you get a bout.

Personally, I've never had a problem like that, and I'm not sure how you determined that it was closer to a size 9 bout. Anyway, you're better off bringing up the issue with the seller than here. I've not known them not to right a mistake. And sure, Ardennes doesn't sell at the narrow margins that Jarrod usually does, but you get the kind of added options that you can only get from buying directly from the mine.

 

[BakerAndBadger]

You'll be better looking out for a vintage one in eBay. I missed out on a 7x1 5/8 last night for 25 Euros, that's gonna cost you about 50 bucks shipped and is worth probably twice that if you were to buy it new.

 

[drfong]

You'll be better looking out for a vintage one in eBay. I missed out on a 7x1 5/8 last night for 25 Euros, that's gonna cost you about 50 bucks shipped and is worth probably twice that if you were to buy it new.

Good point - I've prefer a used coticule. I can't imagine it being butchered.

I'll be in London in Jan - week before, I'm going to buy and have a heap of stuff sent to the hotel.

Shipping to Australia is awful.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Personally, I've never had a problem like that, and I'm not sure how you determined that it was closer to a size 9 bout.

By surface area. The bouts sizes are based on honing surface area. if memory serves size 9 was like 84-96cm² and my bout was like 86 cm². No reason to bring it up with ardennes since it would have cost me more to ship it back to them than I lost by reselling it at a loss. Point is, it shouldn't have happened and because it did, I would advise people not to buy sight unseen bouts from them.


edit: checked and size 9 is 70-84, mine was low-mid 70's, I paid for an 84-102.

 

[danjared]

By surface area. The bouts sizes are based on honing surface area. if memory serves size 9 was like 84-96cm² and my bout was like 86 cm². No reason to bring it up with ardennes since it would have cost me more to ship it back to them than I lost by reselling it at a loss. Point is, it shouldn't have happened and because it did, I would advise people not to buy sight unseen bouts from them.


edit: checked and size 9 is 70-84, mine was low-mid 70's, I paid for an 84-102.

My point is that people make mistakes (even if you think mistakes should never happen), and, knowing how reasonable my and other's interactions with them have been, I bet they would have done their best to make up for a mistake on their part without increasing the cost for you. But, instead you chose to badmouth them without giving them a chance to even know about the problem first. I think that's a shame.

 

[kwigibocity]

But, instead you chose to badmouth them without giving them a chance to even know about the problem first. I think that's a shame.

That is, for me, definitely the 3rd rail; touch it and we never do business again. EVERYBODY makes mistakes, and most of them are honest ones. You're defined by how you handle them, and that's true of both vendor and consumer. Rob & Maurice (the father/son whom own Ardennes operation) are as good as vendors get.

And sure, Ardennes doesn't sell at the narrow margins that Jarrod usually does, but you get the kind of added options that you can only get from buying directly from the mine.

We're not here to undercut our only supplier; I'm not that stupid. We have a pricelist, given to us by them. I use it, to the letter, as the guide for the cost of an 'entirely normal' coticule.
A rectangle with average depth and nothing silly to speak against it will be priced to the nearest whole dollar as their list says (compared to what you'll pay here in the states, with their shipping cost) to buy it directly (based on the $/Euro xe @ the time of our importation).

Problem is, people buy these things not as tools but as little things to collect, and when you throw that into the equation, ANYTHING you can find negative of it makes it suddenly like chopped liver.
"There's a spot on that 10mm+ stone that's only 6mm"; doesn't matter if it is <5% of the sum real estate above that spot, folks only look to that spot.
"What about that crack on the edge?" (which probably took a few seconds to lap away) = low perceived value.
With bouts, the average depth and "rectangle-ish" one will get the exactly average price, too, but too square/elongated/rhombus = less perceived value, too.

I'm sure in some ways our extensive descriptions have helped their business by helping to improve the overall awareness of the tools they sell, so when we've shown something we've no more of they can definitely count on direct queries (and hopefully direct sales) based on trying to obtain something they saw at our coticule page. The drawback, of course, is that the pieces which are entirely fine to use for actual honing of razors (but less appealing as a collection piece to covet) suffer reduced liquidity. And they need liquidity for their operations, just as we do, so that more stones and brushes and so forth can move 'round the circle of life. So we'll occasionally have to give away things for silly reasons, but that's what the market law has dictated.

If they've ever had a problem with anything we've had of theirs being priced too low it hasn't reached here, and if they ever did speak up in this way you can be assured we'd be listening.

 

[paco664]

at knifecenter.com you can get a very nice coti *(i have one from there) that is approx 6"x1.5"x~1".... i paid 85$ for mine shipped and it is a beautiful natural combo...

 

[SliceOfLife]

My point is that people make mistakes (even if you think mistakes should never happen), and, knowing how reasonable my and other's interactions with them have been, I bet they would have done their best to make up for a mistake on their part without increasing the cost for you. But, instead you chose to badmouth them without giving them a chance to even know about the problem first. I think that's a shame.

I don't believe that describing the experience you've had with a vendor and cautioning others about it qualifies as badmouthing. This was years ago. It didn't bother me particularly then, and it certainly doesn't bother me now. In the end I think I was out about $40 on the deal after I sold the stone. To me the $40 was worth not having to contact them for an RMA, expain my complaint, detail the measurements of the stone to them, possibly pay two more shipping charges, but even if not, be waiting a couple weeks for a replacement stone. The shipping wasn't cheap. If I recall, they undercharged for it considerably, and their actual cost was 20 Euro or more. We're looking at 60 Euro shipping at that point, that somebody is paying, to get me an ~80 Euro stone.

All of that is avoided when you buy a cut stone or a bout that you've seen a picture of.

 

[danjared]

Jarrod: Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you are trying to undercut them. You can sell some items for less, but you have the added costs of photographing every item individually and paying for shipping twice (from Ardennes and to the customer, especially since everyone wants "free" shipping). And then, you're selling for less for many items because you've provided all that additional information (which frankly Maurice and Rob don't have time to do). On the other hand, Ardennes does have the ability to offer a selection of a much larger stock and to do things like custom-cut hones. So, there are some clear advantages to both. It's a matter of what the buyer needs.

 

[danjared]

If you get a bout, get it from superior shave.

I bought a size 10 bout (biggest ardennes offered) direct from ardennes, paid more for it than a 175x50 would have cost me. I asked for a natural combo that was long and narrow and wound up receiving a bout that barely qualified for a size 9, much less size 10 and was damn near square. It was a beautiful natural combo and had THICK coti side (think it was almost an inch of coti)... but it didn't meet the dimensions I paid for and was as far from what I had requested with regards to shape as possible. Point being, you WANT to see what you're getting if you get a bout.

By surface area. The bouts sizes are based on honing surface area. if memory serves size 9 was like 84-96cm² and my bout was like 86 cm². No reason to bring it up with ardennes since it would have cost me more to ship it back to them than I lost by reselling it at a loss. Point is, it shouldn't have happened and because it did, I would advise people not to buy sight unseen bouts from them.


edit: checked and size 9 is 70-84, mine was low-mid 70's, I paid for an 84-102.

I don't believe that describing the experience you've had with a vendor and cautioning others about it qualifies as badmouthing. This was years ago. It didn't bother me particularly then, and it certainly doesn't bother me now. In the end I think I was out about $40 on the deal after I sold the stone. To me the $40 was worth not having to contact them for an RMA, expain my complaint, detail the measurements of the stone to them, possibly pay two more shipping charges, but even if not, be waiting a couple weeks for a replacement stone. The shipping wasn't cheap. If I recall, they undercharged for it considerably, and their actual cost was 20 Euro or more. We're looking at 60 Euro shipping at that point, that somebody is paying, to get me an ~80 Euro stone.

All of that is avoided when you buy a cut stone or a bout that you've seen a picture of.

It sounds to me that the problem was a simple mistake on behalf of the seller and your unwillingness to talk to the seller about the problem based on their geographical distance from you. If that's the point you wanted to make, I can understand that. (Also, you said that it was the wrong size but later said it was 86 square cm, which is inline with the size for a size 10 bout (84-102 sq. cm. as you also stated).) I'm not sure why you brought up supposedly overpaying and then losing money on selling the hone when the real issue seemed to be that you didn't want to deal with a return. What I see as the heart of your argument is that this seller didn't do something perfectly the first time, so now you are suggesting to others not to buy from them even though you never gave the seller the chance to fix the mistake. And, you initially didn't even mention that it's your own fault that the mistake didn't get resolved with the seller. So, to me that came off as badmouthing.

 

[Brownbear]

For your price range you could get a narrow bout. Guys will say a narrow stone is harder to learn on, my experience was exactly the opposite. It wasn't till I gave up on the 50mm wide stone I had and bought a 35-40 that I had a breakthrough. If you hold it loosely in your hand and let it rock to meet the blade it is self leveling and very precise. If you hone on a bench or counter you will probably need wider. I'd suggest 30-40 mm by 100-150, even if you have to spend a bit more, it won't be much more. 35 by 150 is about the sweet spot for me. I've bought most of my stones from Jarrod and you can't go wrong as you have a picture of what you are getting. I like 'em more rectangular than triangular.

 

[MileMarker60]

Looking at buying a coticule - max spend of about $50, 20-30 would be ideal
I have big hands, like, massive - like cleavers.
Have some questions if someone could brain dump
Is it easier with a rectangular coticule?
What length and width should I be looking at?
Why the 2 colours on coticules?
Coticule or Coticule bout (the off cuts)
Belgian Coticules come in diff colors and look like they have diff grains - should I be looking out for something?
Can you over cuticle a blade?

Ideally it would best to hold off until you can spend around $100. That would give you more options on size.
If that's not doable, the next best thing would be to look for vintage stone. The only problem is you won't really know how hard a stone it will be. Vintage stones can range from really soft to hard

 

[SliceOfLife]

I said don't buy a bout from them. There's no problems buying their rectangular stones, but there are problems with buying bouts from them and there are no benefits. They aren't even cheaper per unit area in some cases. And no I disagree that it's the buyers fault when a seller sends them the wrong product. I didn't give the seller the chance to fix the mistake because the remedy was worse than the disease. It wasn't a big deal was my point, but not being a big deal and being irrelevant are distinct. If you're suggesting people buy bouts from them I'd love to hear why you think that's a good idea, rather than repeatedly defending them against an imagined assault from someone describing their experience with them.


And this was two years ago. I don't recall the exact measured area, but I do recall calculating it and I recall that it was a size smaller than what I paid for.