Convex club.

[kohalajohn]

Hey there Jim, (Chan Eli). It's John here. I've been away from this thread for many months.

Wow, what an amazing amount of thought and discussion has gone into this. Wow. And Jarrod has pulled the plug. Surprised and not surprised.

One question, if I may, in scrolling through the pages I see some reference to folk using just water instead of oil. On arks.

Any thoughts? I had been told that the hardness of ark meant water just ran off and therefore sticky oil must be used.

Anyway, just wanted to check in with you again and listen to all the good old folk over here.

Aloha

 

[David]

My head hurts.

 

[Steve56]

Why don’t you ask him? He posted above.

 

[alx gilmore]

Here are some guys with hours under their belts. Knives knives and more knives, they charge about $5 a piece to house wives. They will even retemper the blades if they need it.
Convex hones are fine for knives ie; curved blades, or for touch up honing.
Yasuki knife fair 2008

 

[Steve56]

My head hurts.

 

[Steve56]

Tell Jarrid I said hello.

 

[MO1]

yes, I have seem them in Japan as here, and every video of Thiers, Wacker, Revisor, Dovo, etc I have seen has always shown clearly domed benchstones after they're finished with the double wheel and spinning disc if applicable.

In Kyoto I saw a sushi chef that used a circular hone that was raised in the center for use on a yagi-naba, rotating the stone and just coming from the edge to the center. Looked a manmade stone using aluminum oxide basis.

But these people are making the stones reshaped by hand, if that is as easy as loose grit on glass I must try it.

When I have lapped hard stones with loose grit on sheet glass, they always turned out dead flat if the glass was new, and I see the same on the YouTube knife pro videos like Stefanwolf RRooster etc they use loose grits on large sheet glass .

Some of these "street sharpeners" use these kind of stones.

This is a broken piece of that kind of stone. Got it from a street sharpener outside a local supermarket. At that time he used a oval shaped synthetic. According to him you either need perfectly flat stones or raise the middle of the stone to avoid dishing. He used a "correction stone" to rub it at each end of the synthetic stone then end with a few back and forth strokes. I asked if there was any other reason he convexed but not according to him, only convenience.
I took a short video, can try to upload it if anyone is interested.
He mainly sharpens siccors for a living and has apparently been on a program on NHK.

 

[alx gilmore]

In theory, using a rounded stone to sharpen something that is historically "straight" does not make sense. It might make a razor sharp, but it does not make it straight, it only makes it sharp. For knives that is just fine, for smiling razors that is fine, for frowning hollow ground razors eventually that would be a disaster. But unless sheer skill can control the process the straight razor will eventually, if it is to be "straight", will need to be adjusted. This just seems logical to me.

Now we are talking Arkansas stones here, and taking into account the slow cutting speed of these American Beauties, the distortion will be as slow or as fast congruent upon the stones abilities or to the users determination. Considering this, the downtime in correcting the straightness factor once every 6 months even even every few years less might not be that big of a deal. If the convex Arkansas can maintain some fellows favorite razor for an extended length of time there really is no fault to question. I think that for the average person like myself the honing fault in technique would tend towards creating a frown on the edge, some might tend to the opposite, few would tend towards perfectly straight but heck, I think that a smiling edge can be a very good shaver if it is truly shave ready. Wouldn't that be crazy if there was a trend to convert all straight razors into smiling razors. Would that make us all happy?

Alex

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Hey there Jim, (Chan Eli). It's John here. I've been away from this thread for many months.

Wow, what an amazing amount of thought and discussion has gone into this. Wow. And Jarrod has pulled the plug. Surprised and not surprised.

One question, if I may, in scrolling through the pages I see some reference to folk using just water instead of oil. On arks.

Any thoughts? I had been told that the hardness of ark meant water just ran off and therefore sticky oil must be used.

Anyway, just wanted to check in with you again and listen to all the good old folk over here.

Aloha

Hi, John.

In a recent email Jarrod told me he uses his convex stones daily, multiple times. He's not pulled the plug on the convex stones in that sense. He is, apparently, unable to figure out how to make a go of the business of making and selling them.

It's apparent there's too much labor involved and too little profit. Either that, or too much capital investment for a small businessman.

I've read the same sort of material you're referring to concerning the lubricants, but I really don't know anything other than what seems to feel right and work for me. I've not used with success the thick, sticky oils; my thin mixture of Ballistol and water might not be ideal but it feels right to me and seems to work.

Unlike a lot of the people who've posted in this thread I really know just about nothing about these convex stones except the little bit I've understood from what I've read, and what I've gathered from my experience.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[cleanshaved]

Lets not go to handbags at dawn over a stone oh learned ones.

 

[alex1921]

I am not really sure why someone with 9 messages to their name comes here and goes off the walls ballistic insulting people just because they dont like convex stones and whatever. Free country Sir, we can express our opinions. No need for insults. If Steve and Glen single handedly caused Jarrod to stop making convex stones then the market for them must have been really soft to begin with.
I dont have convex stones, I dont use convex stones but I still read this thread and the opinions and experiences of the guys that use them.

 

[bluesman 7]

Tape, dished, or crowned all do so with far more directional change than a 5000-grit-stone's scratch thickness.

Maybe not. You seem to be forgetting that the radius of the crown that we are talking about is in the neighborhood of 33'-50'. Doing the math at the smaller radius and using a 6/8 razor there would be a reduction in the inclusive bevel angle of .1º and the dish in a .5mm bevel reveal would be less than 1 micron. Far less effect at the larger radius.

I should also reiterate that I think that the crowned hones make a lot of sense for honing straight edge blades, but not because of the extremely tiny changes in angles that they create.

 

[Steve56]

I’m not sure why I am attributed with not having used domed hones since that I've stated that I have. I’ve made them, used them and have a piece of dished plate glass and can make them just as Jarred, oops shavettian says. If you want a set of domed Arks, the set that shavettian, oops Jarred sold seems like a pretty good one.

There’s just no compelling need for it except as a narrow hone for honing dished razors.

 

[Steve56]

I don’t use it anymore, but here my glass is, broken corner and all. Works fine, and if I decide that I want to play around with a domed stone again, I’ll have one in about 5 minutes. Jnats are softer than Arks. actually Jarred is kind of late to the game with domed stones, but since he isn’t selling them anymore I suppose it doesn’t make any difference.

 

[stone and strop]

I should also reiterate that I think that the crowned hones make a lot of sense for honing straight edge blades, but not because of the extremely tiny changes in angles that they create.

I have been following along since my initial input and stand by it. I felt the same.
They have a purpose in being able to put an edge on a razor that doesn't have perfect geometry. It speeds production with less loss of time and labor to fix it.
I know the change in bevel is minuscule to say the least but it was a HUGE point with Jarrod that this will make the razor cut much better, yada, yada.
As far as speed when honing I think that is debatable.
I realize the contact is a smaller area but we are finishing on these,so little to no pressure is being used anyway.
As I have followed along I see continually, another hundred laps or a few hundred laps. This is comparative to the flat stone.

There’s just no compelling need for it except as a narrow hone for honing dished razors

Yep.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Had a chance this afternoon to hone some. Here's the link.

DCA hard side only. Focusing on one group of razors only. The two on top ^ are Top of the Top and need nothing more than to be used occasionally, and loved, and bragged on.

So, just to brag on 'em, the Bismarck and the Snap to Close Torrey 136 are incredible razors with wonderful edges. Edges made by me as I fumble about with stones.




This group ^ constitutes today's victims and awaits shave testing.

Having fun with it of course.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

I'm far too lazy to read every post again to find out which of the nice folks critical of convex stones have experience using the stones.

I am in fact interested in the theory and in the entire conversation including the criticism of the stones but sometimes I can't keep straight who is talking from experience.

Anybody who thinks I know anything about stones or honing is sadly mistaken. All I know is what experience has taught me, and that's not very much. I don't have a lot of experience and I'm a slow learner at some things including (this is very obvious to me) honing.

Yet I'm having fun and some of the razors I've honed are gloriously sharp as well as comfortable as sin. My best edges are off the Double Convex Arkansas 8x3.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[kelbro]

Yet I'm having fun and some of the razors I've honed are gloriously sharp as well as comfortable as sin. My best edges are off the Double Convex Arkansas 8x3.

Happy shaves,

Jim

That's all that matters Jim!

 

[Steve56]

Yep, I agree that’s all that matters Jim. Sometimes honing is more than the sum of its parts.

 

[stone and strop]

I'm far too lazy to read every post again to find out which of the nice folks critical of convex stones have experience using the stones.

I am in fact interested in the theory and in the entire conversation including the criticism of the stones but sometimes I can't keep straight who is talking from experience.

I'm not sure anyone is actually critical of the hones other than to say they are not necessary and CAN lead to geometry problems if solely using them.
The "theory" from members with a lot of experience does not have to be from using said stone.
It is the theory of honing razors.
We can understand how the hone will work without purchasing one even though some have actually used them.
I don't think anyone would say that the hone would not work especially on a troubled razor. This is where it will shine and help those that are unable to be successful on a flat hone to the same degree.
The biggest reason for being unsuccessful on a flat hone is geometry or a non flat hone (warped etc.) the convex cures that.

It is the benefits vs a flat hone. Pros and cons that have been offered throughout the thread.
The pros do not outweigh the cons for many of us.
They will work, some will love them and think the world of them - just like any other hone.
A properly lapped flat hone will be more consistent and maintain more of the razors original properties for longer.
Learning how to hone on a flat hone while keeping proper geometry on a razor is a benefit not a hinderance.