Convex combo 8x3 Ark from Jarrod, arrived.

Discussion in 'Hones/Honing' started by kohalajohn, Apr 12, 2019.

  1. Chan Eil Whiskers

    Chan Eil Whiskers Contributor Ambassador

    So, just one thing is missing...

    If I had one I'd send it to you.

    BOSC.2.Pure Scientific Curiostiy.jpg

    Alas, I do not have one.

    Happy experiments,

    Jim
     
  2. @Seveneighth Your experience with the La Grise makes me wonder if the convex surface is able to shed dull particles just a little easier or if the grain is a little bit more 'open'. It's hard to imagine such large radii surfaces to be much different than flat, but its a thought. I can't see how this effect could apply to an ark though.
     
  3. I have no idea. I can imagine that it might expose more garnets or at least allow them to protrude more than usual. That's all I got right now.
     
  4. Chan Eil Whiskers

    Chan Eil Whiskers Contributor Ambassador

    Finally getting somewhere with this stone. Link to today's shave which reflects yesterday's second effort on the Double Convex 8x3.

    I think I can use this sucker.

    Happy shaves,

    Jim
     
  5. A Cut Above

    A Cut Above Contributor

    It took some practice but I am sold on the process and results. I asked Jarrod about convexing a Coticule I bought from him and my concerns. He said this week he is coming out with a video showing the use of a Convex Coticule and concave slurry stone. Just when you think you got it, they pull you back in. I just got to try the Convex Coticule.
     
  6. Chan Eil Whiskers

    Chan Eil Whiskers Contributor Ambassador

    The Ark, being so hard, has the advantage of being a lifetime stone and not ever needing anything done to the dome Jarrod made. I can see the appeal of a convexed coticule, but...

    Oh, my, this is another rabbit hole opening up.

    Happy shaves,

    Jim
     
  7. When Eric brought up the problems of maintaining an even spherical surface I thought that a concave rub stone might work pretty well. Though It would seem not to be much of an issue with a hard Arkansas.
     
  8. On the Ark it will be better, but even Arks will wear with point contact. On a softer stone this will be a problem. Unless a "master" of some sort is used, the stones WILL go out of true. That could be as simple as making a concave granite or glass piece and using some wet/dry fastened to the plate. Something that doesn't result in dimensional changes to the plate. Still have the problem of actually checking the surface though... would have to just go on faith.
     
  9. Yes. Faith and fasting too! Lol. Not being able to true the stones correctly will add a serious wrench into the machine as time goes by.
     
  10. On a flat hone, that is correct.
     
  11. Chan Eil Whiskers

    Chan Eil Whiskers Contributor Ambassador

    According to Jarrod, who should know, this is not a problem he anticipates any of us ever having with our Double Convexed Arks.

    If it's a problem for my great-grandson well so be it.

    [​IMG]

    My problem is I've still not figured out how to get a razor sharp with this stone. Here's a link to what I did today and why. I have in mind a few other things to try with the Geneva, but I'm also considering starting over on this stone with a different razor.

    upload_2019-4-21_17-41-2.jpeg

    In my hands thus far this razor and this stone have not meshed, unless they did today, but, either way it doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things and not much either in my world of shaving, razors, and stones. Still, I'd like to sharpen this sucker. Maybe I did.

    Happy shaves,

    Jim
     
  12. How are your edges off flat arkies? Or other stones lapping film etc? (Not sure what else you use or have used)
     
  13. Chan Eil Whiskers

    Chan Eil Whiskers Contributor Ambassador

    I've gotten good to excellent edges off synthetics, Arks, coticules, and the Zulu Grey as well as pasted strops.

    I haven't shave tested today's Double Convex Ark edge either so it might be good. My edges off the DCA have been edges I shaved with, but not edges that compare very well.

    There's more discussion on my Damn Comfortable Shave thread, linked.

    Happy shaves,

    Jim
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2019
  14. One issue that’s only a short term issue I’d anticipate is getting over the break in period on the stone...

    I like my arks best after about 100 or so honings on a mix of different tools and blades. After many hundred they will go out if true and need resurfacing.
     
  15. A Cut Above

    A Cut Above Contributor

    I just took my Dota Creek black finishing stone and with an old straight razor did about 300 laps on the dry stone. The burnishing really brought up the stones finish to very smooth. The results on the blade is amazing. Very sharp and shaves extremely smooth. I don't think there is a question that Arks should be burnished.
     
  16. Jim and ACutAbove (sorry, don't know your name yet) have both expressed interested in what stroke to use. They talk about the toe coming forward to catch up with and even pass in front of the heel.

    I have found the same thing. making the toe catch up, does help.

    In theory, you shouldn't need to. In theory just a plain X stroke should do it. The heel starts at top left and you see the white ballistol and as it rises up the hill you see the white ballistol move down toward the toe and at the bottom right, when you're down on the low side of the hill, the toe is touching.

    But in practice, I sometimes don't hold the razor perfectly. Same thing on flat hones. The toe can come up. Especially on the upstroke. Not the down stroke. Just the way my wrists and hand muscles work.

    So Jim puts a finger of his other hand, above the toe, or in the middle, and keeps it pressed down and flat that way.

    I find that if I start heel leading, but swing the toe forward, it helps with this problem. it focuses the pressure down on the toe at the end. Or maybe it forces me to think about the toe and that translates into pressing the toe into the stone.

    But what I'm more interested in now, is using my right pinkie. I am right handed. I hold the razor in my right hand. When pulling the razor toward me, my fingers are curled around it and that holds the scales up and therefore the edge is held evenly all along the hone.

    But pushing away from me, I have to rotate my hand a bit when I flip the tang. You know what I mean. Your right hand rolls a bit as your thumb and forefinger flip the tang and therefore the razor, over. And I no longer have as nice a grip, so sometimes I screw up the pushing away, especially at the very end of the stroke, when the razor is at the far away end of the hone.

    So now I curl my right pinkie under the scale and lift the far outside part of the scale up. Very very slightly.

    That lifts away and up, some of the pressure on the heel. And puts downward pressure on the toe. Just enough so the whole edge is getting a fair amount of pressure. Same same.

    when I do this, and very gently, it fixes the problem. At the top of the hone, the toe is no longer lifting up. It is now plunging underneath the white ballistol. I can see that the entire edge is getting attention.

    Hope that makes sense. I don't think a video would show it, it's so subtle.

    As I watch it, I still see it happening sometimes. At the top of the hone, the toe comes up.

    This is just me needing more months and years honing. This problem happens on flat hones as well.

    But a convex stone will quickly show you, if you have this bad habit in your wrists.

    aloha,

    John
     
  17. A Cut Above

    A Cut Above Contributor

    John; You hit on one of the biggest variables in honing. Each person holds and moves a razor differently based on their physical makeup. I find that letting the toe come for ward actually after the summit on the stone keeps the razor flatter. Others may be able to hone like Jarrod keeping a finger on the toe and on the heel. I make sure I constantly watch the liquid to make sure it is uniform across the blade when honing.
     
  18. Chan Eil Whiskers

    Chan Eil Whiskers Contributor Ambassador

    John and John,

    I think you guys are onto something. With a flat honing stone it's less of an issue (at least for me). I've been thinking a lot about the issues particular to this convex stone. Maybe I've used it enough now to watch the various convex stone honing videos again and pick up some subtle points I've missed before.

    I want to use only the weight of the razor (at the end at least) but how does one do that with this convex stone? The blade pivots somewhere (part of the blade has to be up in the air).

    I also want to be able to use pressure (at the beginning) but again how does one do that?

    Happy shaves,

    Jim
     
  19. Yeah, Jim, you don't want to use pressure. You want to finish and get very sharp, so it has to be light.

    I think light pressure means it's easy to screw up. In this case, at the top of the push away stroke, I need to remember to keep the heel up.

    At first I was dropping the heel all the time. I think I've been doing this on flat stones too. But the white oil really showed me how bad it was.

    I hone offhand in the air. So at the top of the push away, my arm is outstretched. I think when I am outstretched, my wrist turns and I drop the heel somewhat.

    I can see honing on a bench with the stone right close to you at your belly, it may be less likely to happen.

    In theory the convexity should supply the technique for you. When you draw an x with neutral pressure, the entire edge, bit by bit, will get perfect and even contact, from heel to toe.

    But we don't draw with neutral pressure. Our grip on our golf club handle is just slightly off and our swing is not straight.

    We pull up or we pull down, and we screw it up. Doesn't matter if the hone is flat or convex.

    So to say hell with it, and hold it down flat with a finger like Jarrod. Or just practice for so long your touch does achieve neutral pressure, then you hone like doc226, without a finger on the razor. I'm trying the latter. And I think it's working. I'm slowly getting better.

    "Don't let the heel drop, don't let the heel drop, oh damn the toe finished above the oil..."

    "Don't let the heel drop, don't let the heel drop, oh good the toe dipped under the white oil this time...."

    The whiteness of the oil is a very helpful tell. With a convex Ark you lose the tell of stiction, but you get the tell of white oil travelling down the edge as you go.

    I might try it on a flat stone, just to see if I'm dropping the toe there too.

    aloha
     
  20. Chan Eil Whiskers

    Chan Eil Whiskers Contributor Ambassador

    It's an interesting stone to think about and use. Your comments are, as always, helpful, John.

    Happy shaves,

    Jim
     

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