Convex club.

[kohalajohn]

Unfortunately I suspect it is the latter.

But the process can be fun.

 

[A Cut Above]

I am still scratching my head on exactly why Jarrod's convex stone works so much faster then my Dan's surgical black and my Coe black finisher but it does. I find using food grade mineral oil works the best and is very easy to clean up.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

I am still scratching my head on exactly why Jarrod's convex stone works so much faster then my Dan's surgical black and my Coe black finisher but it does. I find using food grade mineral oil works the best and is very easy to clean up.

Very interesting.

Could you describe how you're using it, particularly the strokes on the stone?

Thanks and happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Or is it all just "Try this, see if you like it, either way, there's always those hundred others you will try...".

Fixed that for you.

 

[A Cut Above]

I've used a X stroke, rolling X stroke and the one that seems to work even though it should be used for smiling blades is starting the blade square and bringing the front of the blade past the heal. Any work but I still am trying to figure out why the last one works so good. Logic would say it should be the least effective. I do 25-50 laps then see if it cuts arm hair half way up. I can also tell by running my thumb pad across the blade. If the blade sticks and won't let go I am ready for stropping.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

I've used a X stroke, rolling X stroke and the one that seems to work even though it should be used for smiling blades is starting the blade square and bringing the front of the blade past the heal. Any work but I still am trying to figure out why the last one works so good. Logic would say it should be the least effective. I do 25-50 laps then see if it cuts arm hair half way up. I can also tell by running my thumb pad across the blade. If the blade sticks and won't let go I am ready for stropping.

Kinda like this but starting square?

Thanks for the information.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[kohalajohn]

Jim, I am learning that technique is actually a thing with this. At first it seemed easy.

But watching closely at the white ballistol, I see that if I don't pay attention, one end stays up in the air.

If I pay attention, then it's good.

I am going more slowly now.

I just had another shave. I finished a Filarmonica on the black. Very nice shave indeed. Sharp and smooth. But I went slow and careful on the rock.

 

[A Cut Above]

Kinda like this but starting square?

Thanks for the information.

Happy shaves,

Jim

Jim, as I am looking at your diagram, I realize it works because when the blade is perpendicular to the stone, it is also at the apex of the convex. Also the stroke makes sure the front of the blade stays flat on the stone. To clarify, non of my blades are warped. Jarrod has opened a Pandoras box. What a marketing gimmick.

 

[SliceOfLife]

View attachment 972397
It’s not a frictionite. I’m not sure what it is TBH.

Looks like the old synth thuris. I have seen them and natural Thuri's cut like that (a VERY poorly selling/briefly marketed gimmick apparently) come up a handful of times on eBay. They exist, but are extremely rare. I suspect marketed by the same people/at the same time as the (also rare) Thuringian Double-edge hones. At least one I saw come up was pretty clearly NOS. I bid pretty hard on it, but lost.

 

[Namkcakram]

Jim, this is something I see a lot on this forum.

Some sharpening systems work great for some guys and they swear by them. Other guys don't like them at all and insist that only their systems are the good ones.

I think that's why the honing forum is known (more so in the past) as the place where real arguments blow up. Where the mediators have to step in.

I think the difference is technique. Some guys just naturally or through luck, happen to nail the technique that happens to work with that system. Doc226 has found that he is just made for jnats. Or over the years he made himself into someone who does it just the way jnats want. He may be awful on other methods.

Slash wanted to a pass around of his diamond pasted balsa strops, to show that it was a perfectly clear system that would work for everyone. To our surprise, some of the razors eventually went south. Some guys' technique just didn't match up with the system.

Not saying anybody was doing anything "wrong". It seems to be that systems work with certain hand techniques, pressure, god knows what.

And eventually a fella will try a system that coincidentally just happens to work with how his hands and fingers and eyes work. And he thinks that's the best system. Well it's not. It's just a match, is all.

Just a theory.

Tomorrow maybe try a different razor. And randomly adjust some technique. Pressure, number of laps. Maybe do it in a way that your brain says is "wrong".

And if not, you'll have an easy time selling that stone.

The steel matching the stone is a big idea in Eastern philosophy sharpening, and it’s a little crazy to me that it doesn’t seem to have really translated into the straight razor JNAT crowd.

I’m not an expert by any means and many concepts don’t translate perfectly into English, but the theme is a super hard tempered blade mates better with a slightly softer and faster cutting stone. A softer tempered/less chip prone blade mates better with a harder/slower stone. By mates better I mean the majority of people will get consistently better edges.

I find steel treatment aligned with the common honing media for each region. JNATs match hard tempered Japanese razors, and Arks match up well with softer tempered American and English steels.

I get KILLER edges off an ark when honing a Genco/WR Case, a Case brothers/Kinfolk/cattaraugus/legal, or some Sheffield brands that were on the softer and finer grained side like Thomas Turner. I have exactly 1 ONE Solingen made harder tempered blade that works to peak performance on an Ark, the rest seem to need a JNAT to squeeze the last ounce of performance out.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

The steel matching the stone is a big idea in Eastern philosophy sharpening, and it’s a little crazy to me that it doesn’t seem to have really translated into the straight razor JNAT crowd.

I’m not an expert by any means and many concepts don’t translate perfectly into English, but the theme is a super hard tempered blade mates better with a slightly softer and faster cutting stone. A softer tempered/less chip prone blade mates better with a harder/slower stone. By mates better I mean the majority of people will get consistently better edges.

I find steel treatment aligned with the common honing media for each region. JNATs match hard tempered Japanese razors, and Arks match up well with softer tempered American and English steels.

I get KILLER edges off an ark when honing a Genco/WR Case, a Case brothers/Kinfolk/cattaraugus/legal, or some Sheffield brands that were on the softer and finer grained side like Thomas Turner. I have exactly 1 ONE Solingen made harder tempered blade that works to peak performance on an Ark, the rest seem to need a JNAT to squeeze the last ounce of performance out.

That makes sense. I don't have the experience to know if you're right, but what you said makes more sense than anything else I've read on matching the stones to the steel.

I should be able to make the Geneva razor (US) sharp with the Ark.

Jim, as I am looking at your diagram, I realize it works because when the blade is perpendicular to the stone, it is also at the apex of the convex. Also the stroke makes sure the front of the blade stays flat on the stone. To clarify, non of my blades are warped. Jarrod has opened a Pandoras box. What a marketing gimmick.

I'm assuming this is how you're using the stone, from your comment.

I think I'll give this a spin. I'm also thinking I might do better with a smaller stone (thinking about it only at this point).

It occurs to me that my usual honing method includes using my finger on the spine of the toe end of the razor to push and help control that end of the blade. I'm basically just pushing the blade forward from both ends and not pushing down from either end. But...If I'm pushing down at all on the end of the razor (toe or heel) that would screw up honing on the convex stone. I'm not aware that I am pushing down at all (and I certainly try not to as I want the weight to be only that of the blade).

My method works just fine for me with the coticule and the Zulu Grey and the flat Norton, but it might not with the Double Convex Ark.

Happy shaves, gentlemen,

Jim

 

[Namkcakram]

That makes sense. I don't have the experience to know if you're right, but what you said makes more sense than anything else I've read on matching the stones to the steel.

I should be able to make the Geneva razor (US) sharp with the Ark.

I'm assuming this is how you're using the stone, from your comment.

I think I'll give this a spin. I'm also thinking I might do better with a smaller stone (thinking about it only at this point).

It occurs to me that my usual honing method includes using my finger on the spine of the toe end of the razor to push and help control that end of the blade. I'm basically just pushing the blade forward from both ends and not pushing down from either end. But...If I'm pushing down at all on the end of the razor (toe or heel) that would screw up honing on the convex stone. I'm not aware that I am pushing down at all (and I certainly try not to as I want the weight to be only that of the blade).

My method works just fine for me with the coticule and the Zulu Grey and the flat Norton, but it might not with the Double Convex Ark.

Happy shaves, gentlemen,

Jim

Plenty of people like to say there’s something horribly wrong with using two hands like you describe, but I’d bet that’s how a lot of people start out honing and I know I started that way. Heck I’ll still put a finger up there sometimes if a blade isn’t acting the way I expect it to (undercut, bevel polish, etc). Now though, I can tell you for sure that finger started off being a stabilizer to make sure the blade to stone contact was good but eventually you’ll just be using it for feedback without realizing. When you hit that point you can actually get better overall feedback and feel for what’s happening when you hone with the stone in one hand and the razor in the other. When you can do that and hold consistent technique you’ll really feel what’s happening and your edges will either improve or at least be more consistently good.

And yeah I honestly can’t believe people don’t think about matching sharpening media to blades/tools based on region of origin. The preferred steel treatment evolved with the honing options as a package deal, and global commerce wasn’t really a thing... no shady Russians slinging JNATs to anyone with a credit card, so you just have to use what you can source locally.

My Current Genco/WR Case(bought Genco) blades are 4/4 coming off a Dans black Arkansas with a perfectly comfy edge. The Solingens are 1/4. The Sheffield’s are 2/2. I haven’t even tried the Tanifuji on the Ark I can already tell itd be a waste of time.

 

[Mackis]

Isn't it a risk that we are going to see sad blades instead of smiling blades with convex hones? As i see it there is a risk that the pressure on the blade will be on the highest point of the stone. As a honer you have to constantly correct the pressure while honing, otherwise you get more ware on the middle of the blade. But thats me theoretisizing on something i haven't tried.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Plenty of people like to say there’s something horribly wrong with using two hands like you describe,

Using a finger on the spine at the toe I can get a very good edge with other stones honing on the table. I know how to hone holding the stone in the off hand, and understand the point of it, but prefer to hone on the bench, and have had better success honing that way.

Also I am of the firm belief that feedback off the stone/blade combo is hugely important. It's everything in fact. That's why I quoted Jarrod to that effect in my sig line.

I'll describe today's honing of the same Geneva razor I've been using in a second. My shave was better today, significantly better but still nothing great.

Link to today's shave. I'll take any progress. There was some progress made today.

I used this stroke, more or less. Just looking at the stroke it doesn't appear that the heel gets enough time on the stone. Thus I moved the razor towards the left as I went up towards the middle of the stone, and then to the right as in the GIF.

I looked at my edge before honing and several times during honing with my loupe and with my easiest to use and favorite tiny lighted microscope. It's tiny but simple to use and better than most I've tried. Most are a pain. This one's easy. Anyway, the edge looked terrible before honing and better afterwards. Before, the bevel wasn't good visually.

I hope people who know what they're talking about can answer this question group. I'm thinking Jarrod (and if he answers elsewhere and I miss it please clue me in), but not just Jarrod.

If I understand this stone at all (which I might not) the plane of the stone is the same everywhere. By that I mean of course that it's not flat, not all in one plane, but it slopes upward from everywhere to a dome of sorts. From the top of the dome down to the edges the slope is the same everywhere or so close it doesn't matter (I'm not interested in NASA level stuff here).

What I'm trying to find out is predicated upon the assumption that the stone is as I just described it.

If the stone is like a little slice of a big basketball then it shouldn't matter what part of the stone the edge touches, right? There's no need for the edge in it's entirely or in any part of the edge to rub against the apex of the stone? If the edge rubs against any part of the stone that's the same as rubbing against any other part of the stone, right?

I hope that question makes some sense to you, enough that I get authoritative answers.

I continued today honing on the bench rather than with the stone in my off hand. Instead of using my finger to push the blade with my finger placed on the spine near the toe I put my pushing finger in the middle of the blade on the spine. So, I was pushing both in the middle of the blade and on the middle of the scales and supporting the weight of the razor with the hand holding the scales and the stone itself. As usual, having only the weight of the razor on the stone.

I used today both sides of the Double Convex Ark 8X3. The resultant shave was better. The edge was better. I'm not there yet with this stone, but I'm moving now in the right direction.

Thanks to everyone making this thread helpful.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[eKretz]

Yes that is correct. If the stone is in fact hemispherical, the angle that you hold the razor relative to the stone edge makes no difference at all. Every angle will present the stone surface to the edge in exactly the same relationship - providing you don't whack into a shoulder or something similar. If the stone doesn't have an equal radius in both directions then changing the angle of the razor relative to the stone will cause issues. This is one reason I'm not inclined to use such a stone. How will you check that radius in a quantitative manner? How will you maintain it when the stone wears? It's comparatively easy to check if a stone is flat.

 

[bluesman 7]

If the stone is like a little slice of a big basketball then it shouldn't matter what part of the stone the edge touches, right? There's no need for the edge in it's entirely or in any part of the edge to rub against the apex of the stone? If the edge rubs against any part of the stone that's the same as rubbing against any other part of the stone, right?


Happy shaves,

Jim

That is correct Jim, but the basketball is ~70 feet in diameter. Since it is a section of a sphere, and not a whole sphere, it offers an edge that you can hang a shoulder or stabilizer off of to access the heel if necessary.

 

[A Cut Above]

Plenty of people like to say there’s something horribly wrong with using two hands like you describe, but I’d bet that’s how a lot of people start out honing and I know I started that way. Heck I’ll still put a finger up there sometimes if a blade isn’t acting the way I expect it to (undercut, bevel polish, etc). Now though, I can tell you for sure that finger started off being a stabilizer to make sure the blade to stone contact was good but eventually you’ll just be using it for feedback without realizing. When you hit that point you can actually get better overall feedback and feel for what’s happening when you hone with the stone in one hand and the razor in the other. When you can do that and hold consistent technique you’ll really feel what’s happening and your edges will either improve or at least be more consistently good.

And yeah I honestly can’t believe people don’t think about matching sharpening media to blades/tools based on region of origin. The preferred steel treatment evolved with the honing options as a package deal, and global commerce wasn’t really a thing... no shady Russians slinging JNATs to anyone with a credit card, so you just have to use what you can source locally.

My Current Genco/WR Case(bought Genco) blades are 4/4 coming off a Dans black Arkansas with a perfectly comfy edge. The Solingens are 1/4. The Sheffield’s are 2/2. I haven’t even tried the Tanifuji on the Ark I can already tell itd be a waste of time.

You hit the one variable, the steel in the razor. I find some steel likes the JNats, others the Coticule and some the glass stones. What I did notice is after trying razors on the above stones, none were adversely effected using the convex stone for finishing. All edges were improved. Other factors include the pressure on the blade and what your using to lubricate the stone. I am finding the mineral oil works best so far.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Yes that is correct. If the stone is in fact hemispherical, the angle that you hold the razor relative to the stone edge makes no difference at all. Every angle will present the stone surface to the edge in exactly the same relationship - providing you don't whack into a shoulder or something similar. If the stone doesn't have an equal radius in both directions then changing the angle of the razor relative to the stone will cause issues. This is one reason I'm not inclined to use such a stone. How will you check that radius in a quantitative manner? How will you maintain it when the stone wears? It's comparatively easy to check if a stone is flat.

That is correct Jim, but the basketball is ~70 feet in diameter. Since it is a section of a sphere, and not a whole sphere, it offers an edge that you can hang a shoulder or stabilizer off of to access the heel if necessary.

Thank you, gentlemen. Every little bit of understanding of this weird stone helps me figure out good options for using it.

 

[Namkcakram]

You hit the one variable, the steel in the razor. I find some steel likes the JNats, others the Coticule and some the glass stones. What I did notice is after trying razors on the above stones, none were adversely effected using the convex stone for finishing. All edges were improved. Other factors include the pressure on the blade and what your using to lubricate the stone. I am finding the mineral oil works best so far.

Now that’s interesting to hear about the convex stone improving them all... my Solingen and Swedish blades don’t really like my Arkansas stones so much. Not to say they can’t shave just fine off an ark, but it doesn’t feel quite “right” like if you nail a JNAT or Coti edge on the same blades. The one Solingen blade that likes the ark for me actually takes an ark edge easiest when it’s coming fresh off the coticule for midrange.

I wonder if focusing the pressure on a narrow spot on the edge makes the ark somehow more universally appealing? Does anyone have the means to put a hard Swedish steel Tanifuji on a convex ark for science?

 

[Seveneighth]

Personally, I have found that convexing a stone does improve speed. I have two "Special" grade Ardennes Coticules, one from Jarrod, and one from another vendor. The stone from Jarrod is convexed by him and clearly cuts faster than the other which is flat. Other than that the stones feel and behave very similarly.

I also have a soft La Grise coticule which was pretty useless until I decided to convex it myself. I mean really, it was a total dud. Since putting a convex surface on it the stone has sped up enough to be very effective. I have run full progressions with the stone including bevel set right through to finish. The stone just wouldn't handle that beforehand.