Convex club.

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

It's so great to read what experience teaches!

I'm sure they said that.

They also say Arks are not known for their speed. Maybe all the more reason to convex them and speed them up.

Maybe jnats are best when flat. You flatten them every time, as you create slurry. Also slurry would slide off a hemi.

Maybe Arks are best when convex. They need to be sped up. And there's no slurry to slide off. And they are so hard they hold a convexing for a long time. And lapping and burnishing an Ark is evidently a pain in the ***. Best to have Jarred do it once and then never do it at all.

I just sacrificed myself for my brothers on this forum and honed and shaved a second time today. You're welcome.

The La Forme on black Ark finisher, forty laps free hand in the air, water/ballistol, light pressure.

The milky white liquid (water/ballistol) makes it easy to see that that the whole length of the edge is getting attention.

I went slowly, watching the white liquid. And feeling the rise up the hill and then the downhill as the pressure moves along from heel to toe. X strokes.

It was a very nice shave. Yes, there was not much beard because I had shaved this morning. But comfortable and sharp. I mean, nothing is as sharp as .1u diamond balsa. But it was sharp.

I found a problem. The large size of the 8x3 can actually be a trap. It was so wide that I got lazy. I started doing straight hones, not X hones. That was a mistake. As it came down the far side of the hill, the toe was up in the air. Not pushing the milky liquid. Not getting any attention. Not good.

So I went back to X strokes. Then it was good. I could see and feel the length of the edge following the arc of the stone. The heel leading X stroke meant the entire edge, including the toe, received love as I finished the X and the toe slid along the curving arc of the hill.

So the cheaper 6x2 stones have the advantage that they force you to do X strokes. And X strokes are required on convex stones. Now I know.

Tomorrow I'm going to take one of the ten dollar Whipped Dog vintages, hone it on black and try again.

Aloha

John

Several great posts since I was here yesterday. Much appreciated, gentlemen.

John, would you do me a favor and describe, in terms of the strokes I linked earlier, all of which can be copied and pasted if you want to, as images, the stroke you think best on the 8x3 convex?

The little images I posted are clearly of smaller stones. I tend to think, and this may be totally wrong, and just purely both stupid and idiosyncratic, of X Strokes as being somewhat heel leading unless the stone is smaller than the stones I usually use.

On the smallest of my rectangular stones, my 7x2 coticule, I use an X stroke, or what I call an X stroke, but it is at maybe 45 degrees because it sort of has to be to stay on the stone. I tend to use that same 45 degree (or thereabouts, not being precise with the degrees here) on most stones for no particularly good reason.

Just thinking about the convex Ark (which I have only in transit and in my imagination) it seems to me that a heel leading stroke would be best, but that's not what I see being used in the videos I posted earlier. Jarrod may be using a slightly heel leading stroke but not anywhere close to 45 degrees. The woman at Devo, not heel leading I think.

Anyway, what are you saying?

I started doing straight hones, not X hones. That was a mistake.

Do you mean straight hones as in the blade is without any heel leading? Are you thinking, as I do, of X Strokes as heel leading.

Mostly I'm trying to establish two things.

• Nomenclature (which is always an issue, and I don't care about being pedantic; I do care to understand others and be understood).
• What's the best way to use these convex stones?

I know it's early days for you but you're way ahead of me with the convex Arks. I'm not even at the start yet much less muddling through.

Thanks and happy shaves,

Jim

 

[bluesman 7]

I tend to think of X Strokes as being somewhat heel leading unless the stone is smaller than the stones I usually use.


Jim

I think of X strokes as starting with the heel near the edge of the stone and ending with the toe near the edge of the stone regardless of the heel lead/lag angle. The heel lead/lag angle would be an adjective describing the stroke such as 'heel leading X strokes'.

 

[dundak]

You can use elliptical strokes with success. This is a half stroke that is back and forth while slowly pulling the razor from heel to point, then flip to do the other side. Finish with one or two light full stroke laps. .... YMMV as always

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

My stone arrived a day early!

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

You can use elliptical strokes with success. This is a half stroke that is back and forth while slowly pulling the razor from heel to point, then flip to do the other side. Finish with one or two light full stroke laps. .... YMMV as always

Thank you, sir.

 

[paintflinger]

Lord, just read through Jarrod's running commentary and found my uninformed self quoted twice.

<<Wait, what? Why? I thought the Dovo hones were just convex across the width, which makes sense. I can’t understand how a domed hone would work better than just having a convex width.>>

This is not correct; in all 7 different honing stations featuring a convex stone I’ve observed in Solingen (not just Dovo), all of the stones were very slightly aspherically elliptical. The Germans prefer the stone to be more convex along the short axis than upon the long axis, so that they can further vary the intensity of the convex advantages based on the orientation between the line of the cutting edge and the ‘ridgeline’ down the center of the stone. This is the ultimate high skill stone and I thought it better to just use spheres, as they still work, but don’t have that ‘extra speed’ of the aspherical…but you essentially cannot get in to trouble.

I think I understand what Jarrod is saying about the spherical/elliptical shapes, but I think in the interest of pure honing, without regard to maintainability, a convex shape only along the width would be best. Just try to hone an X stroke on the center ridge and call it a day.

The more complicated shapes seem to lend themselves to not needing maintenance as quickly, rather than a hone where you are only honing on the top middle. At least that's my thoughts without trying one. If there's ever a passaround, count me in. I'd love to try one out, but I'm not interested in purchasing a new hone right now.

 

[kohalajohn]

Good morning Jim.

You asked about the x stroke. I think rather than words I'll try to upload a quick video later on today.

Dundas talked about how he makes peripheral circles with a bout to induce convexity. I also think that's a good idea and that's actually what started me on this.

When I bought a loupe I realized that my soft naniwas were often dished. Not good.

I started lapping more but thought how the moment I lapped, it started toward concave again. I thought convexity would be good, as a hill in the middle would be like having money in the bank. The good thing about convexity is that it's not concave, right?

So I got a small bout made of the same material as my nani12. Made several peripheral circles before honing.

But it didn't really work. The bout was so soft it was hardly doing anything. And a coarse bout would be bad, as it would leave coarse particles on the nani12.

At that time I was planning on getting into jnats, not Arks. I was talking to doc226. Very helpful guy. I learned that he no longer uses his naguras. Just a worn atoma 1200 to create slurry. And then he just goes from there, lightening pressure as he moves toward finishing. Using hand skill developed from honing thousands of razors. Very cool.

When I asked about lapping he said no need. The atoma keeps his jnat perfectly flat every time he creates slurry. Also very cool.

What an elegant solution, I thought. I was just about to buy a hard Ozuku and an atoma 1200 for it. From Alex at thejapanstone.com. Another great guy. Very helpful, willing to educate.

Then I saw that Jarrod was convexing Arks. Stones so dense that they would just keep their convexity for the decades I have left on this mortal plane.

So I changed directions and went Ark first.

Perhaps 2020 I'll finally go jnat. And then get way too excited about that too.

By the way, Doc226 also has no interest in convexity. But he doesn't need it. He already has a perfect system.

Same thing with pasted balsa strops. I use them a lot. No need for convexity as the soft balsa rises up to caress the edge.

My patient wife stood on a chair this morning filming me honing x strokes for Jim. Will upload later on. Don't expect anything fancy. It's just x strokes.

aloha

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Good morning Jim.

You asked about the x stroke. I think rather than words I'll try to upload a quick video later on today.

Dundas talked about how he makes peripheral circles with a bout to induce convexity. I also think that's a good idea and that's actually what started me on this.

When I bought a loupe I realized that my soft naniwas were often dished. Not good.

I started lapping more but thought how the moment I lapped, it started toward concave again. I thought convexity would be good, as a hill in the middle would be like having money in the bank. The good thing about convexity is that it's not concave, right?

So I got a small bout made of the same material as my nani12. Made several peripheral circles before honing.

But it didn't really work. The bout was so soft it was hardly doing anything. And a coarse bout would be bad, as it would leave coarse particles on the nani12.

At that time I was planning on getting into jnats, not Arks. I was talking to doc226. Very helpful guy. I learned that he no longer uses his naguras. Just a worn atoma 1200 to create slurry. And then he just goes from there, lightening pressure as he moves toward finishing. Using hand skill developed from honing thousands of razors. Very cool.

When I asked about lapping he said no need. The atoma keeps his jnat perfectly flat every time he creates slurry. Also very cool.

What an elegant solution, I thought. I was just about to buy a hard Ozuku and an atoma 1200 for it. From Alex at thejapanstone.com. Another great guy. Very helpful, willing to educate.

Then I saw that Jarrod was convexing Arks. Stones so dense that they would just keep their convexity for the decades I have left on this mortal plane.

So I changed directions and went Ark first.

Perhaps 2020 I'll finally go jnat. And then get way too excited about that too.

By the way, Doc226 also has no interest in convexity. But he doesn't need it. He already has a perfect system.

Same thing with pasted balsa strops. I use them a lot. No need for convexity as the soft balsa rises up to caress the edge.

My patient wife stood on a chair this morning filming me honing x strokes for Jim. Will upload later on. Don't expect anything fancy. It's just x strokes.

aloha

Oh, my, you got your wife involved. You are way, way, way, way ahead of me.

I enjoyed this post (the history especially) and look forward to you video.

Thanks so much,

Jim

 

[kohalajohn]

Hmmm.

Can someone tell me what video format is allowed here? The .mov format is not accepted.

 

[eKretz]

You would probably be best served by uploading to youtube, then posting a link.

 

[kohalajohn]

Here ya go Jim.

I'm not saying this is the way to lap on convex. Just the way I do it.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Thanks so much. Great video. I particularly like that both the show and the tell are so clear, and that you're not rushing through anything.

Regular X Stroke (above)
45 Degree X Stroke (below)

Your angle looks a bit like a cross between these two (about 20 degrees as you said). Very clear what you're doing.

A couple of questions.

• Do you think a 45 Degree X Stroke keeping the entire blade on the stone throughout (or almost all of the blade) would work? That's me sorta assuming that the stroke actually would keep the blade on the stone throughout which I don't actually know.
• How are you determining when to quit? Undercutting of the lubricant? Sticktion? I've found this fairly hard to determine honing with my Arks.

I like the look of the El Cheapo razor, particularly the scales. You got a nice one there.

Thanks to you and your wife for making such a good video, sir. I'm going to watch it a few more times over the next day or so.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[bluesman 7]

Because of the Spherical surface the same amount of contact results regardless of heel lead angle. The only thing that will change is the angle of the stria lines.

 

[kohalajohn]

I don't think it matters much, 45 degrees or 20 degrees.

As long as you draw a diagonal over the hill, top left to bottom right, every bit of the edge has to get attention.

Like drawing a chef's knife along a cylindrical steel, every point has to touch the steel. It can't be otherwise. Geometry of the edge doesn't matter. So that's good.

What's bad is this. You asked about stiction. One disadvantage of convex hones is there is no stiction. This is unfortunate, because stiction is one of the most helpful tells. And it can't exist, because only a bit of the edge is in contact with the rock at a time.

Flat hones create stiction. As long as both hone and razor are flat. If you are not getting stiction on a flat hone, you know one of those things are not flat and you have to fix it.

I guess a pro convex fella would say so what. A pro convex fella would say the point of convex Arks is that they just work, so you don't need tells any more. (gasp! blasphemy!)

A convex Ark doesn't tell me when to quit. The shave was the tell.

God, look at me talking like an expert now. I'm not. I'm just a guy who has done three shaves on an Ark.

Aloha

 

[Namkcakram]

I Genuinely think as an engineer this makes sense and if nothing else would produce more consistent and repeatable polished edges on straight razors.

I probably won’t ever buy one because the economics don’t make sense currently and I want stones that can sharpen anything and that means flat. Free hand honing most tools, kitchen cutlery, lawn mower blades (wait what?!) happens best with a consistent flat bevel and pressure concentrated at the edge. This stone makes that nearly impossible to achieve reliably, let alone honing a straight and perpendicular edge across a whole blade width. My lawn and dead tree carcasses deserve better than I could achieve with this stone.

For a straight razor with a built in honing guide... it’s easy money. Consistent contact and pressure across the entire bevel everytime.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Thanks to all of you gentlemen.

This is one heavy stone! Oh, my, is it heavy!

I Genuinely think as an engineer this makes sense and if nothing else would produce more consistent and repeatable polished edges on straight razor...For a straight razor with a built in honing guide... it’s easy money. Consistent contact and pressure across the entire bevel every time.

Ah, the engineer's point of view. Jarrod says engineers get it.

I probably won’t ever buy one because the economics don’t make sense currently and I want stones that can sharpen anything and that means flat. Free hand honing most tools, kitchen cutlery, lawn mower blades (wait what?!) happens best with a consistent flat bevel and pressure concentrated at the edge. This stone makes that nearly impossible to achieve reliably, let alone honing a straight and perpendicular edge across a whole blade width. My lawn and dead tree carcasses deserve better than I could achieve with this stone.

Good points. These obviously are not cheap + they won't sharpen our lawn mowers' blades (but I have other stones should I want to do that with one of them).

I don't think it matters much, 45 degrees or 20 degrees.

As long as you draw a diagonal over the hill, top left to bottom right, every bit of the edge has to get attention.

That was my thinking, too, but you expressed it much more clearly and precisely which tells me my thinking was not developed. Now it is.

Like drawing a chef's knife along a cylindrical steel, every point has to touch the steel. It can't be otherwise. Geometry of the edge doesn't matter. So that's good.

What's bad is this. You asked about stiction. One disadvantage of convex hones is there is no stiction. This is unfortunate, because stiction is one of the most helpful tells. And it can't exist, because only a bit of the edge is in contact with the rock at a time.

Flat hones create stiction. As long as both hone and razor are flat. If you are not getting stiction on a flat hone, you know one of those things are not flat and you have to fix it.

I guess a pro convex fella would say so what. A pro convex fella would say the point of convex Arks is that they just work, so you don't need tells any more. (gasp! blasphemy!)

A convex Ark doesn't tell me when to quit. The shave was the tell.

God, look at me talking like an expert now. I'm not. I'm just a guy who has done three shaves on an Ark.

Aloha

Perhaps there are some tells with this stone but we have to find them? Maybe with so few strokes the blade is so sharp tells are unnecessary?

Three shaves off this stone puts you ahead of me, far enough ahead where I'm listening hard, and that experience of yours trumps anybody without experience at all (like me).

Do you live in Hawaii? If so, very nice. I have a friend who recently moved there. She seems happy. She married a Navy man who's stationed there. So, right out of college she moved to the islands. Great person she is. I like her very much.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Twelvefret]

Thanks to all of you gentlemen.

This is one heavy stone! Oh, my, is it heavy!



Ah, the engineer's point of view. Jarrod says engineers get it.



Good points. These obviously are not cheap + they won't sharpen our lawn mowers' blades (but I have other stones should I want to do that with one of them).



That was my thinking, too, but you expressed it much more clearly and precisely which tells me my thinking was not developed. Now it is.



Perhaps there are some tells with this stone but we have to find them? Maybe with so few strokes the blade is so sharp tells are unnecessary?

Three shaves off this stone puts you ahead of me, far enough ahead where I'm listening hard, and that experience of yours trumps anybody without experience at all (like me).

Do you live in Hawaii? If so, very nice. I have a friend who recently moved there. She seems happy. She married a Navy man who's stationed there. So, right out of college she moved to the islands. Great person she is. I like her very much.

Happy shaves,

Jim

Works well for lawnmower blades. Much faster than stones.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Works well for lawnmower blades. Much faster than stones.

View attachment 972831

I don't have a lawnmower. I like to cut the grass but it kills my breathing so I pay someone and try to be gone when he cuts the grass.

I'll bet you're right though. Most things needing to be sharp don't need to be smooth and comfortable on our skin!

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[alx gilmore]

Craftsmen in Yasuki at the annual street fair. Yasuki also pronounced Yasugi is the home of Hitachi Steel boutique steel division. The whole town is about steel and people from all over the area bring their knives for sharpening to this fair.
Togi or sword sharpeners in Japan also use convex stones as they polish/sharpen 5mm of steel at a time. These guy below are sharpening portions of the blade as they go from heel to toe on synthetic stones. For convex blades the principle if fine but the skill of the worker is the key to keeping the edges gentle heel to toe profile. With aggressive stone in the 1,000 grit range lots of steel can be removed fast.

Alex

 

[bluesman 7]

One disadvantage of convex hones is there is no stiction.

This statement surprises me. I get stiction on smiling razors. Same small contact area.