Na. I’m no mod, just a regular member reminiscing on the good old days.
Somewhere in my pile of stones I have a barbers hone that is convexed from the factory. If I can ever get this baby to sleep l try and dig it out.
Convex club.
- Thread starter kohalajohn
- Start date
Somewhere in my pile of stones I have a barbers hone that is convexed from the factory. If I can ever get this baby to sleep l try and dig it out.
Chan Eil Whiskers
Fumbling about.
Cool idea.
Maybe even a manually operated wheel; my dad had one when I was a youngster before he got into orchids.
Happy shaves,
Jim
No pottery wheels or telescopes here. I just find the whole 3 dimensional geometry part of it very interesting.
This is currently my favorite thread on the forums.
[QUOTE="Chan Eil Whiskers]
Nice. What convex stones have you used and how do you use them? I'm trying to learn as much as I can before my stone arrives.
Happy shaves,
Jim[/QUOTE]
I have a convex hard ark, a coticule and a Naniwa 8K. I use half strokes and flip after about 10-20. The stroke is half elliptical, like a windshield wiper stroke.
The coticule a maintain with a BBW bout that is concaved. The Naniwa is maintained with a concaved dressing stone from a Chosera 1K. The ark is so hard I hope never to have to dress it. If I do I’ve been thinking of having a small piece of marble concaved and using wet dry adhered to it or using SIC powder.
The coticule and Naniwa I have had for years. The Ark I bought from TSS. I have always had an interest in convex and elliptical hones because my grandfather and great uncle had a set of Arkies that purposely made that way. I lost them in a move along with a lot of SR gear that “disappeared” from the moving company’s manifest.
The softer stones are not hard to maintain. Making the little dressing stones just takes some work with a dremel and sandpaper. They are not big. You can also just use a dished stone of lower grit.
My stones are more convex then Elliptical. I try to flatten the ends a little with the flat side of the bout. They are not perfect or ready for prime time but find they work well and are fun.
FWIW I rarely keep my hones flat. I’m not a huge believer in keeping them true flat. To much of a pain and once you start using them and after numerous wet dry cycles they never stay truly flat. Why waste a hones by constantly taking a layer off? I give them a light dressing before honing with a small bout made of the same stone or slightly coarser. YMMV.
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Nice. What convex stones have you used and how do you use them? I'm trying to learn as much as I can before my stone arrives.
Happy shaves,
Jim[/QUOTE]
I have a convex hard ark, a coticule and a Naniwa 8K. I use half strokes and flip after about 10-20. The stroke is half elliptical, like a windshield wiper stroke.
The coticule a maintain with a BBW bout that is concaved. The Naniwa is maintained with a concaved dressing stone from a Chosera 1K. The ark is so hard I hope never to have to dress it. If I do I’ve been thinking of having a small piece of marble concaved and using wet dry adhered to it or using SIC powder.
The coticule and Naniwa I have had for years. The Ark I bought from TSS. I have always had an interest in convex and elliptical hones because my grandfather and great uncle had a set of Arkies that purposely made that way. I lost them in a move along with a lot of SR gear that “disappeared” from the moving company’s manifest.
The softer stones are not hard to maintain. Making the little dressing stones just takes some work with a dremel and sandpaper. They are not big. You can also just use a dished stone of lower grit.
My stones are more convex then Elliptical. I try to flatten the ends a little with the flat side of the bout. They are not perfect or ready for prime time but find they work well and are fun.
FWIW I rarely keep my hones flat. I’m not a huge believer in keeping them true flat. To much of a pain and once you start using them and after numerous wet dry cycles they never stay truly flat. Why waste a hones by constantly taking a layer off? I give them a light dressing before honing with a small bout made of the same stone or slightly coarser. YMMV.
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Chan Eil Whiskers
Fumbling about.
This is super helpful to me. Thanks so much.
Half strokes!
It's all helpful. Thanks.
Happy shaves,
Jim
Just experiment. Find what works for you. That’s half the fun.
Right now I have a C13K that is convex from use. I use a rolling X stroke on just the outer edge of the stone. I constantly flip the stone around and only dress the edges. Just from wear it is starting to take shape. I’ve had it for 6 years though so I don’t think this is the preferred method of doing it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Right now I have a C13K that is convex from use. I use a rolling X stroke on just the outer edge of the stone. I constantly flip the stone around and only dress the edges. Just from wear it is starting to take shape. I’ve had it for 6 years though so I don’t think this is the preferred method of doing it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Chan Eil Whiskers
Fumbling about.
Just experiment. Find what works for you. That’s half the fun.
Right now I have a C13K that is convex from use. I use a rolling X stroke on just the outer edge of the stone. I constantly flip the stone around and only dress the edges. Just from wear it is starting to take shape. I’ve had it for 6 years though so I don’t think this is the preferred method of doing it.
I've noticed when flattening the synthetics I use that sometimes they have become domed. I'd expect them to always be on the dished side of the equation but such is not the case.
Happy shaves,
Jim
How many times do I have to tell you guys "flat side up!" Lol.
Nice stone. Is it a Frictionite? If the grit is fine enough I’d give it a go in a heartbeat.
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It’s not a frictionite. I’m not sure what it is TBH.
Was the hone produced like that or was it done after the fact? Without a NIB or advertisement claiming such I would be skeptical. I have never seen mention of such (a spherical or crowned intentionally hone) in any old Barbering textbooks or reference books. Not that they didn't exist but if they did they must have been short lived.
It does not seem a consistent semicircle, nor does it look arched in the length. What makes you think it is a barber hone? The size?
Putting it to a razor would not be of use as many of them are not really suitable anyway.
Interesting stone though.
Concave stone have been made but I have never seen convex for tools or razors till now.
It does not seem a consistent semicircle, nor does it look arched in the length. What makes you think it is a barber hone? The size?
Putting it to a razor would not be of use as many of them are not really suitable anyway.
Interesting stone though.
Concave stone have been made but I have never seen convex for tools or razors till now.
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It looks like it was done like this from the factory but I have no way of knowing this or what it was intended for.
Pike/Norton used to make a whole line of convex and concave stones for woodworkers, machinists and other specialties. They were meant to be used with an elliptical stroke ( back and forth, while moving side to side) on gouges, scrapers, chisels, bits, cutters and specialty plane blades. Many were smaller then you have pictured. A variety of scythe-stones were convex also but a lot, but not all were tapered.
I think a lot of specialty shape hones fell to the wayside once it was more common to use power equipment.
I used to have 12” finish and coarse platens from the Genco razor company. They were both concave in the middle. The coarse had a flat lip on the edge and the finish had a convex lip. They were used to establish the bevel then hone it. I sold them to a knife collector years ago when I realized I would never really use them and were taking up space.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I think a lot of specialty shape hones fell to the wayside once it was more common to use power equipment.
I used to have 12” finish and coarse platens from the Genco razor company. They were both concave in the middle. The coarse had a flat lip on the edge and the finish had a convex lip. They were used to establish the bevel then hone it. I sold them to a knife collector years ago when I realized I would never really use them and were taking up space.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
- Thread starter
- #55
This is also currently my fav thread.
Here are some more humble opinions, which may be completely wrong.
I think the advantages of convexity are minor. And not necessary. Flat stones still work brilliantly.
First. Sometimes razors have a bit of warp to them. The middle will belly out slightly, to the left or right. The convex hone rises and falls and follows along the warp, so that is helpful. The hill does a rolling X for you.
But we can also fix that with hand technique on a flat stone, with our own rolling X. And also warp is rare. And if it is there, it can be so small that it's not much of a problem.
The manufacturers know perfectly well that some of their razors sometimes have a bit of warp. So of course they use convex stones. So their razors come to us all nice and sharp, and appear to be perfect. Buggers.
Regarding warps, the only real advantage of convex over rolling X is with the rolling X you have to do it very correctly or you will be taking more time and eating up more steel. The factories could just tell their workers to use a rolling X, but a convex hone just does it for them and always does it right and probably does it faster.
Second. The acuity thing. Since the bevel is resting on an arc (Not an Ark, but an arc like a curve.) the bevel itself will develop a tiny arc on each side. The bevel itself will develop a hollow ground. Very slight, but there. That makes the bevel angle more acute. By a tiny bit.
So why bother? While more acuity means more sharpness, the acuity is already set at the factory. The factory can set any angle they want. They have already taken care of that. So why fiddle with it?
Well, because same reason some hobbyists tune their car engines to get another 10% horsepower. The automobile factories could easily tune that engine to get another 10% horsepower. But they hold back, to stay well within the working loads. Because they don't want engine breakdowns and customer complaints. So they take what could be a 250 horsepower engine and tune it down to 200. A car hobbyist knows the car can handle another ten percent horsepower, to he tunes it up for that.
Same with acuity. Acuity is good, but steel is only so strong. As you move from 17 degrees to 16 to 15 and down, you get close to performance limits. Tiny bits of edge breaking off because it's too sharp for the steel to handle. And customer complaints.
A convex hone takes you from, for example, 17 degrees to 16.6 degrees. Tiny. But tiny is good because a big drop in acuity is like foolishly doubling your car horsepower. You're going to break something. But if you're the guy who mods his car engine for another 10% power, maybe you enjoy doing this too.
But again, this is a small thing. It's a hobby thing.
Third. The honing is a bit faster. Because only a small bit of the edge is resting on the stone the effort is concentrated. This more than makes up for the fact that not all the edge is being worked at once.
If you were a professional honemeister, saving a bit of time would be important. If you're a civilian like me, it is less important. We all own middle progression stones and progression gives you speed. Maybe it's nice if you want to avoid a middle progression. Maybe it's nice if you're setting up your kid with shaving stones and he doesn't own any middle progression stones. So you give him a convex combo and a Bismarck and a Tony Miller strop and send him off to find his own place to live.
So those are the three reasons, in the theory world, for this convexing thing.
Having said that, the above is not my main motivation at all. My main motivation was I wanted to buy an Arkansas stone. But the problematic finishing issue of them held me back. I have read lots of stories of peeps buy an Ark and going through grief trying to sand them and burnish them and rub chisels on them and its full of frustration. I didn't want that.
Then I saw Jarrod was doing all the finishing on the Arks and charging the same two hundred buck price that Dan's charges.
So, well, why not?
The three minor advantages of convexing, that was gravy. A little bit of gravy.
Ok, now I can say that today I just had my second shave off a convex arc. Yesterday's was on a Dovo La Forme, same blade as a Bismarck. So of course it was a great shave.
This morning I used a Gold Dollar. I had set the bevel and finished it, on the same convex combo. It shaved well. But slightly less well than the La Forme yesterday. So the razor itself does make a difference.
And today I compared the Gold Dollar to a Dovo Bismarck finished on a .1u diamond paste balsa. Left side of face on Gold Dollar Ark, right side of face on Bismarck .1u.
The Bismarck was sharper. Of course it was, because .1u diamond paste. It gave a closer shave. A Bismarck on .1u diamond balsa is a pretty amazing combination. I don't know how to beat that.
But the Ark worked, even on the GD. The Ark did bevel to finish, and quickly. And it was a good shave. I'm a happy customer.
It may be the Ark is good for most times. But if I crave that super sharp effect, I can always go from the Black Ark to really finish on .1u diamond balsa.
What I'm saying is I don't really care about the three theories of warp, acuity and speed. I like it because it seems to handle all the basic work well.
I was getting frustrated with film because it was hard to tell when it was worn out.
I was getting frustrated with synths because their softness had them dishing on me and I always had to be careful to lap them frequently.
I was getting frustrated with coticules because mine has an awkward angled shape and you have to be good at using them. Also they are not super sharp.
I was about to go into the jnat world and had been talking with Alfredo and Alex. And one year I still will.
But I went convex Ark instead. I found that they work well. And if you can have them pre honed and pre sanded and pre finished for the same two hundred dollar price as at Dan's, then ok.
And if you don't care about the three theories of warp, acuity and speed, here's the main advantage. The benefit of convexing is that it's not concave. The moment after I lap my synths, they start to go toward concave. But having a hill of dense Noviculite is like having money in the bank. You're not going to go into the red for decades. And then I'll be dead and that will solve that.
Aloha
John
Here are some more humble opinions, which may be completely wrong.
I think the advantages of convexity are minor. And not necessary. Flat stones still work brilliantly.
First. Sometimes razors have a bit of warp to them. The middle will belly out slightly, to the left or right. The convex hone rises and falls and follows along the warp, so that is helpful. The hill does a rolling X for you.
But we can also fix that with hand technique on a flat stone, with our own rolling X. And also warp is rare. And if it is there, it can be so small that it's not much of a problem.
The manufacturers know perfectly well that some of their razors sometimes have a bit of warp. So of course they use convex stones. So their razors come to us all nice and sharp, and appear to be perfect. Buggers.
Regarding warps, the only real advantage of convex over rolling X is with the rolling X you have to do it very correctly or you will be taking more time and eating up more steel. The factories could just tell their workers to use a rolling X, but a convex hone just does it for them and always does it right and probably does it faster.
Second. The acuity thing. Since the bevel is resting on an arc (Not an Ark, but an arc like a curve.) the bevel itself will develop a tiny arc on each side. The bevel itself will develop a hollow ground. Very slight, but there. That makes the bevel angle more acute. By a tiny bit.
So why bother? While more acuity means more sharpness, the acuity is already set at the factory. The factory can set any angle they want. They have already taken care of that. So why fiddle with it?
Well, because same reason some hobbyists tune their car engines to get another 10% horsepower. The automobile factories could easily tune that engine to get another 10% horsepower. But they hold back, to stay well within the working loads. Because they don't want engine breakdowns and customer complaints. So they take what could be a 250 horsepower engine and tune it down to 200. A car hobbyist knows the car can handle another ten percent horsepower, to he tunes it up for that.
Same with acuity. Acuity is good, but steel is only so strong. As you move from 17 degrees to 16 to 15 and down, you get close to performance limits. Tiny bits of edge breaking off because it's too sharp for the steel to handle. And customer complaints.
A convex hone takes you from, for example, 17 degrees to 16.6 degrees. Tiny. But tiny is good because a big drop in acuity is like foolishly doubling your car horsepower. You're going to break something. But if you're the guy who mods his car engine for another 10% power, maybe you enjoy doing this too.
But again, this is a small thing. It's a hobby thing.
Third. The honing is a bit faster. Because only a small bit of the edge is resting on the stone the effort is concentrated. This more than makes up for the fact that not all the edge is being worked at once.
If you were a professional honemeister, saving a bit of time would be important. If you're a civilian like me, it is less important. We all own middle progression stones and progression gives you speed. Maybe it's nice if you want to avoid a middle progression. Maybe it's nice if you're setting up your kid with shaving stones and he doesn't own any middle progression stones. So you give him a convex combo and a Bismarck and a Tony Miller strop and send him off to find his own place to live.
So those are the three reasons, in the theory world, for this convexing thing.
Having said that, the above is not my main motivation at all. My main motivation was I wanted to buy an Arkansas stone. But the problematic finishing issue of them held me back. I have read lots of stories of peeps buy an Ark and going through grief trying to sand them and burnish them and rub chisels on them and its full of frustration. I didn't want that.
Then I saw Jarrod was doing all the finishing on the Arks and charging the same two hundred buck price that Dan's charges.
So, well, why not?
The three minor advantages of convexing, that was gravy. A little bit of gravy.
Ok, now I can say that today I just had my second shave off a convex arc. Yesterday's was on a Dovo La Forme, same blade as a Bismarck. So of course it was a great shave.
This morning I used a Gold Dollar. I had set the bevel and finished it, on the same convex combo. It shaved well. But slightly less well than the La Forme yesterday. So the razor itself does make a difference.
And today I compared the Gold Dollar to a Dovo Bismarck finished on a .1u diamond paste balsa. Left side of face on Gold Dollar Ark, right side of face on Bismarck .1u.
The Bismarck was sharper. Of course it was, because .1u diamond paste. It gave a closer shave. A Bismarck on .1u diamond balsa is a pretty amazing combination. I don't know how to beat that.
But the Ark worked, even on the GD. The Ark did bevel to finish, and quickly. And it was a good shave. I'm a happy customer.
It may be the Ark is good for most times. But if I crave that super sharp effect, I can always go from the Black Ark to really finish on .1u diamond balsa.
What I'm saying is I don't really care about the three theories of warp, acuity and speed. I like it because it seems to handle all the basic work well.
I was getting frustrated with film because it was hard to tell when it was worn out.
I was getting frustrated with synths because their softness had them dishing on me and I always had to be careful to lap them frequently.
I was getting frustrated with coticules because mine has an awkward angled shape and you have to be good at using them. Also they are not super sharp.
I was about to go into the jnat world and had been talking with Alfredo and Alex. And one year I still will.
But I went convex Ark instead. I found that they work well. And if you can have them pre honed and pre sanded and pre finished for the same two hundred dollar price as at Dan's, then ok.
And if you don't care about the three theories of warp, acuity and speed, here's the main advantage. The benefit of convexing is that it's not concave. The moment after I lap my synths, they start to go toward concave. But having a hill of dense Noviculite is like having money in the bank. You're not going to go into the red for decades. And then I'll be dead and that will solve that.
Aloha
John
This is my guess as well, it is most likely for a specific sharpening task - not razors.
Aside from slip stones and the like (generic for various shapes),many specialty stone shapes were created to hone specific shapes of items.
Oooops. I just checked my math and came up with .0005" instead of 1 um.
kelbro
Alfred Spatchcock
It wasn't all that long ago that the 'experts' on shaving forums were saying that arkies weren't suitable for honing razors.
It may be something to worry about when you're talking about an Ark that is prepped for razor use. They are definitely not known for their speed.
- Thread starter
- #60
I'm sure they said that.
They also say Arks are not known for their speed. Maybe all the more reason to convex them and speed them up.
Maybe jnats are best when flat. You flatten them every time, as you create slurry. Also slurry would slide off a hemi.
Maybe Arks are best when convex. They need to be sped up. And there's no slurry to slide off. And they are so hard they hold a convexing for a long time. And lapping and burnishing an Ark is evidently a pain in the ***. Best to have Jarred do it once and then never do it at all.
I just sacrificed myself for my brothers on this forum and honed and shaved a second time today. You're welcome.
The La Forme on black Ark finisher, forty laps free hand in the air, water/ballistol, light pressure.
The milky white liquid (water/ballistol) makes it easy to see that that the whole length of the edge is getting attention.
I went slowly, watching the white liquid. And feeling the rise up the hill and then the downhill as the pressure moves along from heel to toe. X strokes.
It was a very nice shave. Yes, there was not much beard because I had shaved this morning. But comfortable and sharp. I mean, nothing is as sharp as .1u diamond balsa. But it was sharp.
I found a problem. The large size of the 8x3 can actually be a trap. It was so wide that I got lazy. I started doing straight hones, not X hones. That was a mistake. As it came down the far side of the hill, the toe was up in the air. Not pushing the milky liquid. Not getting any attention. Not good.
So I went back to X strokes. Then it was good. I could see and feel the length of the edge following the arc of the stone. The heel leading X stroke meant the entire edge, including the toe, received love as I finished the X and the toe slid along the curving arc of the hill.
So the cheaper 6x2 stones have the advantage that they force you to do X strokes. And X strokes are required on convex stones. Now I know.
Tomorrow I'm going to take one of the ten dollar Whipped Dog vintages, hone it on black and try again.
Aloha
John
