Convex club.

[stone and strop]

I see that Jarrod Connerty of Superior Shave is participating in this and other similar conversations, but on his website.

Scroll down to the Q&A towards the bottom. Link.


Happy shaves,

Jim

Yes, but he is not answering the questions but rather like a politician in directing to something else. My comment on the amount of time spent on each mm of the blade and how the convex stone is only in contact for a small fraction of the time as it would be on a flat stone is responded with the bevel angle acuity is very important to master grinders.
If I want a shallower angle to the edge I can thin the spine to make it any angle I want. Yes, the convexity will make the bevel shallower - so what? Is this something I want?

I believe he will continue to justify his new product as he feels it is superior and I'm sure would love to sell as many as possible.
For me, it is only superior to him.
I'm sure this convex stone thing will pass fairly quickly.

 

[kohalajohn]

Hey Jim, after this morning I can assure you that we can stop worrying about purchasing these convex babies. I had a good experience this morning. I am happy with my decision.

Sorry for the length of this, but I learned a lot today.

You use an X or rolling X stroke, either is fine. No need for elliptical, says Jarrod to me, you can just stop thinking about that.

I use a rolling X stroke normally, so I just kept doing that this morning.

Saturday morning is when I attend to my week's rotation. So that's what I just finished doing.

Photo below. In front of the rotation are the three honing methods.

On the left is a nani12 which I used on the two Gold Dollars on the left side of the cigar box. The large square to the left of that is my acrylic lapping plate with 400 WD to flatten the nani12. I lapped the nani12 before using it.

The result was ok. After the nani12, the two razors could treetop, but only barely. I'm sure they could shave, but likely not great. Then again, they're not great razors.

In the middle is the brand new convex combo Ark. With the watered down Ballistol in the small pump. As you see, Ballistol turns white when you add water. It's called the Ouzo effect.

This is the one I was excited about. I did the middle three razors on that. Of the three razors, the left one is a wonderful and expensive Dovo La Forme. I got this razor because it's exactly the same blade as a Dovo Bismarck, and I really respect the Bismarck. This will allow me to compare the same razor with different honing methods. To the right of the La Forme is a Gold Dollar and to the right of that, is a cheap old vintage from Whipped Dog.

The La Forme only got the finish, on the black translucent. Not the bevel side.

The GD and vintage had their bevel reset using the light side of the Ark. Bevel setting was done with the stone flat on the table, mild to medium pressure. Rolling X stroke Ten one way, flip, ten the other way. Sixty of that. Then ten normal laps, flipping each time.

Then after bevel setting the GD and the vintage, they both went on the black translucent finisher. Finishing on the black was done with stone held in the air, freehand, normal flipping X strokes, light pressure. Fifty strokes.

And hey, after that, all three razors tree topped very well. I could hear pinging, so it wasn't science fiction sharp, but hairs popped off at a quarter inch. That's what I want. And very interesting that the two razors that had their bevel set on the soft Ark, went straight to finisher, and still tree topped at the end. Without having to finish for an hour.

The final three razors on the right were finished on .1u diamond pasted balsa, per The Method. The balsa had been lapped and re pasted recently. A Gold Dollar, then another cheap old vintage from Whipped Dog, and finally on the far right, a Dovo Bismarck.

Over the next weeks and months this Dovo Bismarck, maintained on diamond pasted balsa, will be compared to the Dovo La Forme, maintained on the convex Ark. The Bismarck will get balsa after every shave, as that's how The Method works. The La Forme will get convex Ark after a week of shaves. I would like to see if I can use this Ark to keep a razor always same same, like The Method. This is the main advantage of The Method and The Method has spoiled me, making me want my razors to always have that freshly honed feel.

That's why I have started a Saturday morning ritual. To keep everything fresh.

The final three razors, the ones on diamond pasted balsa, also tree topped very well. Very similar to how the Ark razors tree topped. Razors on .1u diamond pasted balsa always tree top well of course. I mean, damn, it's .1u diamond.

I stropped on leather with the convex Ark La Forme and shaved.

It was a very nice shave. Sharp and smooth. Two passes was BBS. I was about to do another round of touch ups around the chin, as I usually do, then felt the skin and realized I didn't have to do that.

Aftershave didn't burn, so that's a good sign.

Now, to be fair, the Dovo La Forme is a great razor so of course it will shave well. A real test will be on the other two cheap razors.

What really interested me was these two cheap razors that I bevel set on the Ark, and then progressed straight from bevel setting to finisher with nothing in the middle. Normally, using just a finisher would take a long time. So long that I'd put a middle progression of some sort in there.

But I just used the bevel setter. And pretty seriously. Pressure plus about eighty laps. So the bevel and edge really was returned to whatever the soft Ark bevel setter created. And then the black translucent only gave it fifty light laps.

And then they both tree topped just great. That's pretty nice. I'll see how they shave. If they also shave nicely, I will be very impressed. I'm guessing that surely they will need more time on the convex black finisher, but we'll see.

And I really enjoyed the shave. Sharp and close like diamond pasted balsa. Was it even more comfortable? Maybe. Need more time to tell for sure.

This convex Ark acted like a coticule on steroids.

It was expensive though. Since we use X or rolling X, I think the 6x2 will be fine. The same fun for less money. 8x3 is a lot of real estate. It's a luxury.

Also I think this convexing business would only make sense on dense Arks. It would be idiotic on a synthetic, because the convexity would soon be lost. Convexing is so laborious and expensive that you only want to have this done once in your lifetime. And flat stones work just fine.

Diamond pasted balsa does a similar thing as convex stones, I think. The razor sinks into the soft balsa, meaning the honing medium adjusts to every point along the edge, similar to how the curve of a convex Ark adjusts to every point along the edge.

And diamond pasted balsa is way cheaper.

I think the Ark's advantage is the shave feels like a stone finish, not a paste finish. If that matters to you. And that's a very subtle thing.

More discussion about the strokes, to follow. The strokes were a bit different.


John

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Hey Jim, after this morning I can assure you that we can stop worrying about purchasing these convex babies. I had a good experience this morning. I am happy with my decision. Sorry for the length of this, but I learned a lot today...

John, thanks for such a great, informative post. I'll read it several times.

Impressive results I think especially for a first use of an unusual stone and for how fast they were achieved.

I'm not sure exactly how I will approach using the stone. It should arrive on Tuesday. Right now I'm only using one straight razor and am fine with its current edge, but I'll think of an experiment which interests me.

This convex Ark acted like a coticule on steroids.

That sounds very cool.

You may have mentioned this before, but I've forgotten. Do you have experience with Arkansas stones other than the new one?

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[kohalajohn]

Jim, this is my first Ark.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Jim, this is my first Ark.

Thanks. Nice stones, aren't they.

It will be my first Translucent Black and my first Ark which isn't a finishing stone.

I've been looking at the video I embedded earlier where Jarrod is honing on a dry convexed Ark. It looks like he's using a heel leading stroke. Makes me wonder how a 45 degree X Stoke would go on the convex stone?

I also wonder about whether it would go well with half strokes (edge leading/spine leading/edge leading/spine leading, etc). I've had great success using these with my flat coticule and my flat Zulu Grey, but I don't know anything about how that stroke might or might not work on this convexed Ark. Any thoughts?

Of course, aside from asking questions and reading, I can always give these sorts of thing a try, but there's no reason to be stupid in my experiments and sacrifice metal if there's no chance of success.

Even though my stone will arrive on Tuesday I might not use it right away. Or, maybe I will.

I'm pretty stoked about your report and results, John.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[TheLegalRazor]

Interesting and informative discussion gentlemen. I'm looking forward to following this.

 

[duke762]

Uhhhh, I'm a little slow on the uptake and until I saw the pictures above, I thought and assumed that the stones were convex along the length of the hone not along the width as shown. Now that seems to make more sense to me than going uphill downhill in the middle. Is it truly flat across the width? It causes me to take pause and think about all the time and effort trying to get mine perfectly flat. Time will tell and looking forward to following it.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Uhhhh, I'm a little slow on the uptake and until I saw the pictures above, I thought and assumed that the stones were convex along the length of the hone not along the width as shown. Now that seems to make more sense to me than going uphill downhill in the middle. Is it truly flat across the width? It causes me to take pause and think about all the time and effort trying to get mine perfectly flat. Time will tell and looking forward to following it.

 

[bluesman 7]

I see that Jarrod Connerty of Superior Shave is participating in this and other similar conversations, but on his website.

Scroll down to the Q&A towards the bottom. Link.

Happy shaves,

Jim

Thanks for that link. I see that I was quoted and the numbers that I was using for my math musings were close enough to not even bother re calculating. For those worried about not hitting the edge when going from a flat hone to the Hemi-hone. The angle change is equivalent to lowering the spine ~ 1 micron. Shouldn't take many strokes to get back to the edge as long as the bevel width is not excessive.

 

[stone and strop]

The angle change is equivalent to lowering the spine ~ 1 micron.

Yet he felt the need to mention it when I commented on the speed of one vs the other. Obviously it is large to him.
If the master grinders wanted a lower angle for their razors they would have built this into the original product, spine vs width.
It has not been addressed - yet - on his site, about the most probable reason for such a thing being it was productive and easier to hone an entire edge well with little effort given slight variations in razors.

Its really what makes the most sense. Time is money in the MFG world. The same as a narrow hone would help with a troubled razor.
I have never seen any hone Mfg.'s produce a hone for the amateur or professional use other than flat.
Why is that? Stones are not hard enough to sustain it? Obviously not if the MFG's do it. Surely they hone more razors than anybody.
I prefer to fix the problems rather than work around them (narrow hone).
The fact is I have honed new razors that have had issues, yet had an even bevel despite being warped.


I would also invite Jarrod to come take part in the discussion here instead of picking at things by proxy.

 

[bluesman 7]

I don't buy the speed thing. All of my razors are smiling, so the contact area on a flat hone is close to identical to a straight edge on a hemi-hone. I don't notice any speed difference between smiling razors and straight edge razors, steel differences not withstanding, on flat hones. Though I do always hone all razors with x strokes and I always hone toward a smile on straight edge razors. On thin razors the smaller contact area further mandates light pressure to keep deflection to a minimum. This may be part of why I don't see a difference in speed.

Note that I have never used a hemi-hone, but I do feel that the above observations are valid.

On a related note, I do notice a huge difference in efficiency on my belt grinder when I grind a flat surface using a small contact area wheel and surface grinding attachment vs grinding the whole surface at once via a flat platen. I think that the increased pressure per unit area benefits are valid in this application.

 

[kohalajohn]

Jarrod does not take part in the discussion here, because the forum charges industry guys, six hundred bucks a year to belong. I'm getting an understanding that the profit margins in selling hones means that's five hundred bucks more than he has.

And I think that also answers why other businesses are not bothering convexing their hones. They know what Jarrod is now learning. It's a lot of work for little money, and you end up with a product that nobody wants.

I see what he's doing. Like us, he got excited about some detail and geeked out on it. He bought a $200 (retail) Dan's Ark for wholesale at say $100, put a hundred bucks of labour into it and sold it for $200.

The only thing we know for sure about convex hones is that german engineers like them and everybody else dislikes the very idea of them. Humans think tribally and we immediately think we have to split into the convex tribe and the flat tribe. Well, I have not become a "convexer". My flat stones still work just as brilliantly as ever.

Convexing hones by hand is a small artisanal thing. But maybe in the future, the Shapton company will figure out how to use electric machines and cheap Philippine labour to convex a hard glass finishing hone in mass production. And it will become popular. And Jarrod, in his old age, will have a brief smile of satisfaction.

But for now, this is the honing forum of the internet. This is where we go to argue about rocks. So let's do that.

 

[stone and strop]

Jarrod does not take part in the discussion here, because the forum charges industry guys, six hundred bucks a year to belong. I'm getting an understanding that the profit margins in selling hones means that's five hundred bucks more than he has.

And I think that also answers why other businesses are not bothering convexing their hones. They know what Jarrod is now learning. It's a lot of work for little money, and you end up with a product that nobody wants.

I see what he's doing. Like us, he got excited about some detail and geeked out on it. He bought a $200 (retail) Dan's Ark for wholesale at say $100, put a hundred bucks of labour into it and sold it for $200.

The only thing we know for sure about convex hones is that german engineers like them and everybody else dislikes the very idea of them. Humans think tribally and we immediately think we have to split into the convex tribe and the flat tribe. Well, I have not become a "convexer". My flat stones still work just as brilliantly as ever.

Convexing hones by hand is a small artisanal thing. But maybe in the future, the Shapton company will figure out how to use electric machines and cheap Philippine labour to convex a hard glass finishing hone in mass production. And it will become popular. And Jarrod, in his old age, will have a brief smile of satisfaction.

But for now, this is the honing forum of the internet. This is where we go to argue about rocks. So let's do that.

I would think that if Jarrod wanted he could join as a person and not a vendor and it would cost nothing.
Perhaps I am being misunderstood.
I never once said they had no value. I believe they certainly would have value in the context they have been used for in the past - Manufacturing.
There is no doubt in my mind they will access all points along an edge better than a flat hone given irregularities in such things.

The fact that they cut faster- that is debatable. The fact that a factory can put a full finished bevel on a razor faster is not debatable- it will.
It will take less skill for a factory to reach the entire bevel if there were any minor irregularities. Time is money.
It will also be easier for someone that is new to do the same, but at what cost?
The fact that it would cause more geometry issues in the long run - that is debatable.
What becomes of it when it wears? That is a problem.
The lower acuity is a joke quite honestly. They can be manufactured with whatever is best and would be easily repeatable given proper honing on a flat stone, so that, is a non issue for me.
If they were so great (other than for MFG) they would have produced something for the "professional" even at a higher cost.
These are just some of the things that make perfect sense to me. For anyone to buy into an idea it has to make sense.
As far as it becoming popular - we will have to wait and see.
Given reactions by some very knowledgeable honers here I would think it is going to be a tough sell.



"The fact is I have honed new razors that have had issues, yet had an even bevel despite being warped."

This is an issue for me and should be for everyone. A slightly warped blade would not be detected at the factory given the convex method. This is proof enough when a razor has an even bevel but is clearly warped.

 

[David]

This is where we go to talk about rocks

Fixed that for you. I miss the days when that were true.

 

[dundak]

I like convex hones. I find them quick because you can increase the speed of your honing without sacrificing results. This is great in polishing an edge right off a bevel setter.

I’ve stated before that a lot of “traditions” on forums are insular. They developed over the past decade of guys trying to figure things out. Borrowing stuff from knife forums, taking bits and pieces from barbers manuals, etc. These methods and lore they have cobbled together may have nothing to do with how things were done over 100 years ago.

I do a lot of things with straight razors that buck what is “acceptable” by the council of elders on the Internet. I get great shaves and just keep on moving.

If convex hones intrigue you then buy or shape one and report on it. If you have no interest at all then just circular file it and keep doing what your doing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Jarrod does not take part in the discussion here, because the forum charges industry guys, six hundred bucks a year to belong. I'm getting an understanding that the profit margins in selling hones means that's five hundred bucks more than he has.

And I think that also answers why other businesses are not bothering convexing their hones. They know what Jarrod is now learning. It's a lot of work for little money, and you end up with a product that nobody wants.

I see what he's doing. Like us, he got excited about some detail and geeked out on it. He bought a $200 (retail) Dan's Ark for wholesale at say $100, put a hundred bucks of labour into it and sold it for $200.

The only thing we know for sure about convex hones is that german engineers like them and everybody else dislikes the very idea of them. Humans think tribally and we immediately think we have to split into the convex tribe and the flat tribe. Well, I have not become a "convexer". My flat stones still work just as brilliantly as ever.

Convexing hones by hand is a small artisanal thing. But maybe in the future, the Shapton company will figure out how to use electric machines and cheap Philippine labour to convex a hard glass finishing hone in mass production. And it will become popular. And Jarrod, in his old age, will have a brief smile of satisfaction.

But for now, this is the honing forum of the internet. This is where we go to argue about rocks. So let's do that.

Makes me wonder how many convex stones Jarrod's sold. I've not seen much discussion about the convex stones, by gentlemen who own and have used a convexed stone I mean.

Jarrod mades much of hoping to be remembered for changing the convention in the straight razor honing world from flat stones to convex stones. He offers several stones in the convex configuration. He hones razors only on convex stones. Whether he's right about any of what he says is beyond me for the moment but I admire his commitment. He might be in trouble if these really are products nobody wants.

Spoiler: Nobody?

You and I know at least two guys who've bought the convex stones. Maybe we'll be early adopters. Maybe we'll be stuck with stones we don't like (but it's not looking like you will be as you like yours so far).

I'm pretty sure Jarrod might well be described as fully convexed in his convictions. You and I are hobbyists experimenting. We both know our flat stones work well.

Maybe my new stone will be fantastic for me. Maybe not. I'm not worried about it. I don't have buyer's remorse. I also don't know jack about what the stone will do for me, my edges, and my shaves. It will be interesting finding out.

If these stones become mainstream in the hobbyist community I think somebody will figure out how to make them without a big labor cost.

What sort of reputation does Jarrod have as honer? From what I've heard he's in the top tier if that tells us anything.

I like convex hones...I’ve stated before that a lot of “traditions” on forums are insular...I do a lot of things with straight razors that buck what is “acceptable” by the council of elders on the Internet. I get great shaves and just keep on moving. If convex hones intrigue you then buy or shape one and report on it. If you have no interest at all then just circular file it and keep doing what your doing.

Nice. What convex stones have you used and how do you use them? I'm trying to learn as much as I can before my stone arrives.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[bluesman 7]

I certainly see the advantages for straight edged razors and applaud Jarrod's promoting and making them available. If I were to ever try them I would certainly go the route of dishing a lapping plate and self convexing from scratch, as I'm very attracted to that whole process also.

You can read about creating spherical surfaces by looking into hand making telescope mirrors which is still the best way to make them.

Incidentally I ran into the telescope mirror thing when shopping for SiC (silicon carbide) grit for lapping hones. Some of the people who sell small quantities of SiC started offering it to serve the telescope community. Probably more small quantity purchases of SiC go to telescope and lens lapping applications than for flattening hones.

 

[kohalajohn]

Fixed that for you. I miss the days when that were true.

Damn moderators, making us all play nice.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

 

[kohalajohn]

I think the first hobbyist to make concave granite plates and then from that, make their own convex hones, will be a guy who has a wife into pottery.

I told Jarrod that all the hours and sweat and pepsi he goes through, is not needed. Just clamp your stone on an variable speed electric pottery wheel. Have the wheel spin the stone and then just hold the grit, sandpaper, stone, on top of it.

He agreed. But a pottery wheel would cost several hundred dollars, so he won't.

And that shows you he's not selling a lot of convex stones.

The first hobbyist would be a guy like Bluesman, who knows about grinding telescopes. If he has a wife into pottery, that's a win.