Consistency across the blade

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Yes, bevels are not meeting fully, and lots of deep 1k stria that end in a microchip.

In the second photo from the side of the bevel looks like a large burr formation on the right side.

Joint the edge, a single lite stroke on the stone face to remove the burr and straighten the edge. Then reset the bevel with the 4k until all the deep and random stria are gone and a uniform 4k stria pattern and fully edge meeting are formed. Then remove the 4k stria with the 8k.

The 4k stone, where you transition from grinding to polishing is probably your most important stone. If you do not get all the deep stria out and get the bevels meeting fully, the edge will fight you all the way.

This is a common new honer problem.

Post a photo of the whole blade from the side, you may have other issues that need attention.

 

[Gamma]

I've noticed that when I test the blade sharpness, the center is HHT 3 or 4, but the heel and toe are more like HHT 1 or 2.

The only way to sort this out is to check progress at each stage.
That will tell you where your inconsistencies are. If you are even-steven at 1k, but losing it at 5k, you know where to focus your attention. Most of the time, a lack of sharpness starts with poorly executed or inconsistent bevel work.
You shouldn't need a microscope to see it and you can definitely feel it if you pay attention.
Make sure your stones are flat.
Learn to hone a bevel on your 1k that is on point - so you can manage a shave with it. If the bevel is 'off' you will know right away.
Then progress.

 

[Stygo]

Post a photo of the whole blade from the side, you may have other issues that need attention.

Attached. Thanks all for the advice.

 

[Stygo]

Learn to hone a bevel on your 1k that is on point - so you can manage a shave with it. If the bevel is 'off' you will know right away.

In this case, is it worth taking it all the way back to 1k or is 4k coarse enough?

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Looking at the whole blade, spine and edge, you can see the blade has issues. There is no wear on the spin (or very little) over the toe and at the heel on one side of the blade and the opposite on the other, indicating a warp. You can see this by loading the photo into a photo editor and enlarging the photo over the spine.

The easy way to see all these issues at one time, is to ink the bevels, with red sharpie ink and the spine, do a single straight stroke lap on each side with a high grit stone, and see where the ink comes off the spine, bevel and where it is not. Take a new photo of both sides for documentation and a road map of how to hone the razor.

BTW, WD40 will easily remove all the ink with a paper towel, so don’t sweat getting ink all over the razor. You can use black, but black can look like a shadow, red removes all doubt and can easily be seen without magnification.

You will need to ink the bevels to ensure that you are making full contact with the stone when honing and learning the rolling X stroke.

In short, the edge is not straight a slight frown, S edge, and the razor is not ground evenly, warped at heat treat or both. If the razor is not sitting flat on the hones, it will be more difficult to hone as the spine and bevel are not making full contact. You cant hone a bevel if it is not touching the stone. Well, you can but, you will need to use a rolling X stroke.

Yes, you will need to go to the 1k to properly grind and bevel set the bevel.

What brand of razor is this?

 

[Stygo]

Looking at the whole blade, spine and edge, you can see the blade has issues. There is no wear on the spin (or very little) over the toe and at the heel on one side of the blade and the opposite on the other, indicating a warp. You can see this by loading the photo into a photo editor and enlarging the photo over the spine.

The easy way to see all these issues at one time, is to ink the bevels, with red sharpie ink and the spine, do a single straight stroke lap on each side with a high grit stone, and see where the ink comes off the spine, bevel and where it is not. Take a new photo of both sides for documentation and a road map of how to hone the razor.

BTW, WD40 will easily remove all the ink with a paper towel, so don’t sweat getting ink all over the razor. You can use black, but black can look like a shadow, red removes all doubt and can easily be seen without magnification.

You will need to ink the bevels to ensure that you are making full contact with the stone when honing and learning the rolling X stroke.

In short, the edge is not straight a slight frown, S edge, and the razor is not ground evenly, warped at heat treat or both. If the razor is not sitting flat on the hones, it will be more difficult to hone as the spine and bevel are not making full contact. You cant hone a bevel if it is not touching the stone. Well, you can but, you will need to use a rolling X stroke.

Yes, you will need to go to the 1k to properly grind and bevel set the bevel.

What brand of razor is this?

This is a Thiers-Issard

 

[JPO]

Most of these TI razors comes with a slight s shape. This is one of my TI's rescued from the wild.
There are some limits to what a rolling x stroke can handle. This was certainly a challenge for me.
Sometimes it is easier to hone them as TI, and Dovo does at the factory, and according to German and French traditions.
That does not include a perfectly flat stone.
Even this razor shaved just as good as any other I have.

 

[Stygo]

I tried the red sharpie, but somehow lost the pictures. I did see that the spine was not totally straight, but I also noticed that if kept on a wider stone it didn't wobble. I decided to try again starting back at 1k and being careful about rolling strokes. Did 1k,4k,10k, and then decided to try coticule. At 10k I did try very lightly pulling the edge lengthwise across the stone and then honing again to a clean apex. I think this is a better attempt by feel and images. Will see on shave tomorrow.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

First, when taking micrographs, pick a spot or defect, like the double railroad tracks in photo no. 3 and mark a line from the defect at the edge to the spine. Then photograph the same spot for comparison.

The 1k could use more honing, start with some pressure to cut the bevel from the back to the edge. Joint the edge strop 10-15 laps on linen and reset the edge with 10-15 laps. Your edge should be straight and clean, no flashing or burr.

Start each stone with some pressure and finish with light weight of the blade pressure. Take a look at the Axe Method of honing, diminishing stroke count, Japanese half lap honing. Alex demonstrates it on a Jnat, but you can use it without slurry on a synthetic stone to great effect.

With the 4k remove all the 1k stria and make the edge chip free. Stay on the 4k until all the deep 1k stria is removed and you have a straight, chip free edge.

With the 8k remove all the 4k stria and make a chip free edge, Joint the edge when you think you are finished, strop on linen and do 10-15 lite laps to re-set the edge.

Each deep stria will end in a chip at the edge.

Drop the Coticule from the progression. It is just adding more unknow variables to learning to hone. Likely that the coticule is not finer than 8k and you are going backwards in progression and making learning to hone much more difficult. Get a good clean 8k edge, then try adding Natural stones. Few natural stones produce edges finer than 8k.

Here are some micrographs of what your bevels and edge should look like. These photo were on a pitted, eBay beater and was the second razor this guy had honed.

Google My Second try at Honing, for the full thread.

1k

4K

8K

12k

 

[Stygo]

I did a shave on the previous one and it was much better. Almost passable ATG, and extremely smooth WTG.

I did one more try, but only did a picture of the end product at 10k, looks better compared to what you sent:

Will give it a try tomorrow.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

The bevel looks better, but the edge looks rough, with a burr or flashing.

The goal is a straight edge, not a mirror bevel, but to get a straight edge with synthetics you must polish the bevel.

You can get a polished bevel and still have an edge that is not straight or fully meeting and will not shave well.

Try jointing the edge on the 10k, stropping on linen and reset the bevels back to meeting fully on the 10k, you should not need a lot of pressure. Jointing will cut off the flashing and make a straight edge, then you just need to remove a few microns to get the bevels back to meeting at an edge that is already straight.

Compare your edge to the 12k photo. You are probably very close to making a smoking 10k shaving edge.

 

[Stygo]

The bevel looks better, but the edge looks rough, with a burr or flashing.

The goal is a straight edge, not a mirror bevel, but to get a straight edge with synthetics you must polish the bevel.

You can get a polished bevel and still have an edge that is not straight or fully meeting and will not shave well.

Try jointing the edge on the 10k, stropping on linen and reset the bevels back to meeting fully on the 10k, you should not need a lot of pressure. Jointing will cut off the flashing and make a straight edge, then you just need to remove a few microns to get the bevels back to meeting at an edge that is already straight.

Compare your edge to the 12k photo. You are probably very close to making a smoking 10k shaving edge.

Gave it a shot. Thank you for all the advice. Truly last try before shaving:

 

[DrStrange]

Most of these TI razors comes with a slight s shape. This is one of my TI's rescued from the wild.
There are some limits to what a rolling x stroke can handle. This was certainly a challenge for me.
Sometimes it is easier to hone them as TI, and Dovo does at the factory, and according to German and French traditions.
That does not include a perfectly flat stone.
Even this razor shaved just as good as any other I have.

View attachment 1662053

I have one very much like that.

 

[Stygo]

Gave it a shot. Thank you for all the advice. Truly last try before shaving:

Better image:

 

[Stygo]

I have one very much like that.

Guess from your reaction it isn’t a favorite!

 

[DrStrange]

Guess from your reaction it isn’t a favorite!

I can't go into it without ranting.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Did you Joint and strop the edge?

Looks a bit better, but difficult to tell from the photo. Still believe you are close to a very good edge.

Modern TI’s are not ground as well as vintage TI’s, but they can be made to shave well. I have honed a lot of new TI’s.

 

[Stygo]

Did you Joint and strop the edge?

Yes, but I do notice it takes me longer than 10 strokes to get the edge back at 10k (maybe like 30). I'm wondering if I need to go all the way back, I could shave hair at 1k though so I think this was OK. I'll try this edge out tomorrow for the real test.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

So, 10 laps are for an edge that was already meeting fully, and you just remove the burr or flashing with a single lite stroke on the stone face.

If the bevels were not meeting fully and or you do more than one jointing stroke or use too much pressure, you will remove more of the edge and that will require more laps to bring it back. But if you are able to bring back an edge to fully meeting in 30 laps, that is pretty good, and the edge was in good condition.

Look straight down on the edge with some magnification, if you see any shiny reflections, the bevels are not still meeting, or you have a burr.

Going back to 1k will just add deep stria that will all need to be removed. Make sure your 10K is lapped clean of swarf, and that you wash the stone holder, stone, razor and your hands of any grit.

You still have some deep stria on your 10k bevel, which means, you did not remove all the deep stria, or you are introducing low grit on your 10k. Any deep stria the reaches the edge will end in a chip at the edge. A 10k edge should be near mirror.

You should be working very clean at the finish stone to get the best edge, and especially at your finish laps.

 

[Stygo]

Updates with a mix of good and bad news.

Bad: The TI pictured above shaved OK, but not great. Would not call this a success.

Good: I decided to try a second razor (Ralf Aust) that has a flat spine. I managed to get it to about the same point as the above, but kept seeing scratches at higher grits and not a clean edge. I've been very careful to work clean with stones, so I found this confusing.

I decided to try a different set of stones (Shapton Pro, was using Shapton Glass Stone previously). I did these at 1.5, 5, 8k with jointing and stropping between and the edge looked much more consistent from scratches and much less "rough" near apex. Also, I could bring back the edge after about 10 strokes after jointing which took much longer on the glass stones. I then tried moving to the 10k glass stone and started to get the bigger scratches and roughness again. I backed up to 5k, 8k, and then left it there with a good stropping. This was a substantially better shave than the TI and smooth ATG (used both razors on same shave); would call it a success.

Next:

Try out the TI with the pro stones to see if it makes a difference
Find a different higher grit stone to try (will likely try the 12k pro) and see if I can take the edge to the next level.

It seems strange that I would see a difference between the types. It is probably something with my technique that is less forgiving on the harder stones. Need to figure that out at some point, I'm not going to keep both sets.