Consistency across the blade

[Stygo]

I'm learning razor honing (up to 8k on shapton & then coticule under running water). While there is definitely room for improvement, the blade has been shavable without irritation ATG; better than the factory at least.

I've noticed that when I test the blade sharpness, the center is HHT 3 or 4, but the heel and toe are more like HHT 1 or 2. I try to be very consistent on pressure so I've been wondering if this is either poor technique on accidentally rocking over the edges of the stone (maybe need chamfer?) or just not honing enough to get them all the way there.

Any of you have this problem and resolve it?

 

[RayClem]

If you are using a hone that is narrower than your blade is long, you have to be very conscious of your honing stokes. The center of the blade stays on the stone longer than the heal and toe. Thus, what you experienced is not uncommon. You have to emphasize the pressure at the heal and toe to get them to end up like the center. that comes with experience.

 

[rbscebu]

As you are still in the early stages of learning SR honing, may I suggest that hone with the whetstone in-hand (not mounted on bench).

Your SR may have the slightest of a smile on the edge. Honing in-hand allows the whetstone to move about a little, better following the profile shape of the edge.

I would also recommend that you chamfer the edges of your whetstones.

 

[Wid]

I see a lot of folks using a coti under running water. Also have seen people recommend this, I absolutely hate trying to hone under running water. Who started this method?

All you have to do is rinse, spray or whatever to keep the hone clean.

 

[alex1921]

Even straight looking razors might not be completely straight. Little warp, little smile. On those razors doing sort of a rolling stroke, just transitioning the pressure as the razor moves over the stone can make a huge difference for properly setting the bevel.

 

[Tomo]

It's not uncommon to get a weak heal or toe. Inking the bevel with a Sharpie marker is useful to see where you are making contact. After a while you will get a feel for how to hone that particular razor. Some razors have their quirks. Don't be afraid to lift the heel of toe slightly during the rolling strokes.

 

[Empire straights]

I see a lot of folks using a coti under running water. Also have seen people recommend this, I absolutely hate trying to hone under running water. Who started this method?

All you have to do is rinse, spray or whatever to keep the hone clean.

Yeah I never do this either. If I need to bump up the edge on a coticule thin lather will get it there with ease. Mineral oil works though a little more messy.

 

[RayClem]

I see a lot of folks using a coti under running water. Also have seen people recommend this, I absolutely hate trying to hone under running water. Who started this method?

All you have to do is rinse, spray or whatever to keep the hone clean.

Using running water is helpful when doing final stroked on your finishing hone using very light pressure. The running water insures all swarf and slurry is removed from the stone and helps provide a finer finish.

As an example, one of the hones I use is the Imperia La Roccia. I produce a slurry on the stone and start honing. Then as I go, I start to add a few drops of water to the stone to thin out the slurry. I keep adding water a few drops at a time until all of the slurry is essentially gone and the edge of the razor starts to drag on the stone as the edge has now become smooth and there is surface tension between the stone and the blade due to the thin layer of water between. At that point, I move to running water. The water will provide extra lubrication and reduce fristion. When the edge starts to feel sticky under running water, the hone has done everything it is capable of achieving.

I like super sharp, super smooth edges for my tough beard and sensitive skin. I have never found a Coticule edge that will achieve both. Coticules are comprised largely of garnet crystals that often have a rhombic dodecahedron shape. This provides a wonderfully smooth edge, but does not achieve as keen an edge as some other mineral types. Garnets are not friable and thus do not break down into every finer particles. Natural hones that are silica based do have friable particles that constantly break down into finer particles during the honing process. That is also the principle upon which silicon carbide (carborundum) barber's hones function.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Post a photo of the razor with close up of the blade, it may be a problem with the razor keeping the bevel off the stone.

Yes, it is a common new honer issue. Most likely the bevels are not meeting fully. Additionally, do not put a lot of stock in hair test, they are very subjective and unreliable for new honers.

That it is aggressive ATG is more telling, that the bevels are not meeting fully.

Get some magnification and look straight down on the edge, any shiny reflections are where the bevels are not meeting, chips or rolled edge.

Yes, the edges must be chamfered or better, rounded and the stone lapped flat and smooth. Some Shapton’s need a bit lapped off, before they perform well, the Stria on the bevel will tell you. GS Shapton’s have a tendency to load up, keep them clean, especially for the final laps or you can damage the edge.

It may also be that your coticule is not finer that 8k and you are going backwards in grit.

It really is a sharpness, honing issue.

Here are some edge photos, straight down on the edge.



First photo is an edge that is almost fully meeting. This edge will cut hair and shave, though not well.

Second photo is a fully set edge and will shave well ATG.

 

[Stygo]

Post a photo of the razor with close up of the blade, it may be a problem with the razor keeping the bevel off the stone.

Thanks for the suggestions. I will see if I can grab one from my phone or camera sitting around the house - what kind of equipment did you use to take those?

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

A $30 usb microscope.
Google (My Second try at honing.) for a step by step tutorial, taking an eBay beater to shave ready. USB photos were taken by a new honer of the entire progression.

 

[Stygo]

Thanks - I'll take a look.

 

[TSENG]

TNT: Wet thumbnail and lightly drag the edge lengthwise across the nail, similar to a "breadknife" cut. Blade should slightly dig in, with no skipping. If it skips, the bevel is bad in that spot.
TPT and TNT clarification needed - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/tpt-and-tnt-clarification-needed.331381/

 

[thp001]

I see a lot of folks using a coti under running water. Also have seen people recommend this, I absolutely hate trying to hone under running water. Who started this method?

All you have to do is rinse, spray or whatever to keep the hone clean.

First time I saw it was the Dr. Matt Coticule video series on YT.

 

[Stygo]

I took a look using a loupe straight down on the blade and didn't see any shiny spots like above or other anomalies, in general the edge looked more scratched than mirror-like. I made sure the stones had a slight chamfer to soften the sharper edge. Then I started at 4k and worked back up to higher grits being mindful of watching heel and toe to make sure they got a little more love. I skipped the coticule this time to rule it (or my technique with it) out as a culprit. At least from non-shave tests sharpness seemed more consistent (HHT-3 roughly). Going for the real test tomorrow, will shave and see how it does.

If this is successful, next will revisit the coticule. I had much better results with the coti at one point. One factor might be that I had just lapped it - a scratch on it was annoying me.

 

[Empire straights]

I took a look using a loupe straight down on the blade and didn't see any shiny spots like above or other anomalies, in general the edge looked more scratched than mirror-like. I made sure the stones had a slight chamfer to soften the sharper edge. Then I started at 4k and worked back up to higher grits being mindful of watching heel and toe to make sure they got a little more love. I skipped the coticule this time to rule it (or my technique with it) out as a culprit. At least from non-shave tests sharpness seemed more consistent (HHT-3 roughly). Going for the real test tomorrow, will shave and see how it does.

If this is successful, next will revisit the coticule. I had much better results with the coti at one point. One factor might be that I had just lapped it - a scratch on it was annoying me.

I had a problem of scratching the blade(still do) if the chamfer weren't a low enough angle or if I didn't find the edges of the chamfer. My wrist likes to kick out sometimes apparently. Try rounding out all *hard angled* edges and follow the other advice here and you'll be solid. Chamfer preference can be tricky and really dependent on technique. I like them angled more like a French chamfer, but with the hard lines slightly/ fully rounded. See if that helps. I have to go back and do it all the time on stones I use regularly because the edges get a little roughed up sometimes in transport and stuff.

 

[rbscebu]

I had a problem of scratching the blade(still do) if the chamfer weren't a low enough angle or if I didn't find the edges of the chamfer. My wrist likes to kick out sometimes apparently. Try rounding out all *hard angled* edges and follow the other advice here and you'll be solid. Chamfer preference can be tricky and really dependent on technique. I like them angled more like a French chamfer, but with the hard lines slightly/ fully rounded. See if that helps. I have to go back and do it all the time on stones I use regularly because the edges get a little roughed up sometimes in transport and stuff.

A good observation and your suggested remedy sounds logical. I will try the same.

@Empire straights, pardon my ignorance but what shape is a "French" chamfer? I am familiar with the difference between a chamfer and a fillet.

 

[Frank Shaves]

I've noticed that when I test the blade sharpness, the center is HHT 3 or 4, but the heel and toe are more like HHT 1 or 2. I try to be very consistent on pressure so I've been wondering if this is either poor technique on accidentally rocking over the edges of the stone (maybe need chamfer?) or just not honing enough to get them all the way there.

Any of you have this problem and resolve it?

You betcha!

In a perfect world, the edge on your modern razor is perfectly straight. Unfortunately*, the world is not perfect and the edges on many razors are not perfectly straight, and it is often necessary to give the heal and toe a little extra love using a rolling x-stroke.

When using a rolling x-stroke, you should only lift the toe and heel enough to reach the last few mm of the heel and toe. Sometimes you can achieve this by just applying gentle pressure and not actually raising the toe and heel off of the stone.

Never close your eyes, pray and go for it by bearing down on the heel or toe. Start with very light pressure and look for the sign of swarf. Once you see a small amount of swarf, pause and use your loupe to examine your work. Take your time and constantly check your work. You will not be arrested for taking your time. Remember, you can only remove metal - not add metal to your razor.

Watch this video:

*An edge with a slight smile can be a good thing, but that's another topic.

 

[Stygo]

A $30 usb microscope.
Google (My Second try at honing.) for a step by step tutorial, taking an eBay beater to shave ready. USB photos were taken by a new honer of the entire progression.

The shave was OK, but not amazing. I decided to try out the microscope, here are a couple of pictures (post-shave, post-stropping)

 

[JPO]

The shave was OK, but not amazing. I decided to try out the microscope, here are a couple of pictures (post-shave, post-stropping)

There seems to be allot of deeper striations from what looks like a 1k stone.
Is this an 8k edge?
There is also a burr that needs to be delt with. This will probably get better if the deeper striations are removed with something like an 4 to 6k midrange stone.
If you see a reflective white line under magnification, you have a burr.
There are different ways to deal with this. However, taking a step back is probably the easiest.