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Cnat (Adaee #12000) -v- Hard Black Arkansas Using Very Hard Stainless Steel SRs

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
Tomorrow I will start comparing the black Ark against my Adaee #12000 Cnat with my hardest-steel SRs, the Titan ACRO T.H-70.

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Both SRs are of Japanese stainless steel having a hardness in the late 60s RHC and were refined on lapping films of 5μm, 3μm and 1μm. The black tail was then finished on the black Ark and the green tail finished on the Adaee #12000. Both whetstones are very hard and slow "cutters" (probably better described as slow polishers). Surprisingly both stones have similar densities of 2.72 (Ark) and 2.77 (Cnat) although of course they have different mineralogical properties.

For finishing, each SR was given (without slurry) about 400 laps with water followed by about 200 laps with lather (I told you they were slow), all using just the mass of the blade as pressure. Lapping with lather was finished with a few short X strokes.

I will report back here with my observations during the week.
 

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
I spent all of last week comparing my Titan ACRO T.H-70 SRs finished on the Adaee and the black Ark. Before finishing these SRs on the whetstones, each of the two whetstones were dressed on 1k grit W&D. Comparison shaves were all performed with the same pre-shave routine and face-lathered Palmolive Regular cream (Italy) face lathered with a Chinese guaranteed genuine pure badger hair synthetic brush. I tried to balance out things as best as possible so the shave routine went as follows:

Monday, Wednesday, Friday & Sunday
  1. WTG - black tail RHS and green tail LHS
  2. XTG+CdM - green tail RHS and black tail LHS
  3. XTG opposite direction - black tail RHS and green tail LHS
Tuesday, Thursday & Saturday
  1. WTG - green tail RHS and black tail LHS
  2. XTG+CdM - black tail RHS and green tail LHS
  3. XTG opposite direction - green tail RHS and black tail LHS
RESULTS:

Monday
No difference was noticed between the two SRs except that the green tail appeared to be just slightly less keen on the CdM so, after the shave, the green tail was given 200 laps with water followed by 200 laps with lather on the Adaee. after the shave the black tail was given 100 laps with water followed by 200 laps with lather on the Ark.​
Tuesday
No noticeable difference between the two SRsin either keenness or comfort except that the black tail may have been just a little more comfortable. After the shave, each SR was give 100 laps with water and 100 laps with lather on their respective whetstones.​
Wednesday
No noticeable difference between the two SRsin either keenness or comfort except that the black tail may have been just a little more comfortable. After the shave, each SR was give 100 laps with water and 100 laps with lather on their respective whetstones.​
Thursday
No noticeable difference between the two SRs in either keenness or comfort except that this time the green tail may have been just a little more comfortable. After the shave, each SR was give 100 laps with water and 100 laps with lather on their respective whetstones.​
Friday
No noticeable difference between the two SRs in either keenness or comfort. After the shave, each SR was give 100 laps with water and 100 laps with lather on their respective whetstones.​
Saturday
No noticeable difference between the two SRs in either keenness or comfort. After the shave, each SR was give 100 laps with water and 100 laps with lather on their respective whetstones.​
Sunday
No noticeable difference between the two SRs in either keenness or comfort except that this time the green tail may have been just a little more comfortable.​
CONCLUSION:

Based on the two whetstones I used (every natural whetstone is different), the SRs and my honing technique, I found that there is no noticeable deference in shaving results between the Adaee #12000 and the black Arkansas whetstones. The Ark cost almost 8 times as much. I might one day pass the Adaee on to a worthy SR shaver but only because it is bigger, heavier and not as "pretty" as the black Arkansas.​
If I had my time again and knowing what I know now, would I buy the black Arkansas? No, I would just get the Adaee #12000.​
 

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
Reading this Forum some SR users like to drop down to a lower grit natural stone (such as an Ark') after finishing on a much higher grit synthetic for smoothness?
Yes. I have previously found the same with other SRs. Coming off diamond pasted balsa strops onto my black Ark (and my Adaee) will produce a more comfortable shave but a loss of keenness, particularly in the CdM (a.k.a. fool's pass).

I suppose that the best arrangement for me would be to shave with two different SRs. One would be off pasted balsa for those tough whisker areas and the other off my black Ark or Adaee for the rest of my whiskers.
 
Yes. I have previously found the same with other SRs. Coming off diamond pasted balsa strops onto my black Ark (and my Adaee) will produce a more comfortable shave but a loss of keenness, particularly in the CdM (a.k.a. fool's pass).

I suppose that the best arrangement for me would be to shave with two different SRs. One would be off pasted balsa for those tough whisker areas and the other off my black Ark or Adaee for the rest of my whiskers.
This would bear out the claim that the Adaee is not strictly a 12k grit stone which some guys say?
 

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
This would bear out the claim that the Adaee is not strictly a 12k grit stone which some guys say?
I don't think that any natural whetstone can be rated with a grit size like you can with synthetic whetstones. There are just too many different minerals involved, their shape and how they are bound together.
 
Are you maybe using a pasted strop? I've owned a dozen Cnats and none were anything close to an ark in refinement... Like: Worlds apart. I use oil on my arks, but even with water/lather... I'd still expect an ark to put a CNat to shame. An Ark is the most highly refining stone in existence in the right hands.


Don't mean to offend, but we had a guy swear for months that his Norton 8k and Cnats were just as fine as his Escher, puzzling the entire honing forum... then when I asked that question he was like "Yeah, I always strop on Cromox! That doesn't change anything! It's stropping, not honing!" So can never be too sure.


If not, I'd start to wonder about the razors and wonder if maybe they had a max refinement level that the CNAT met. I'd want to put some vintage steel into the comparison.
 
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rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
No pasted strops used either before or during my comparison test. I'm not a pasted strop sort of bloke.

Both SRs were initially taken back to lapping films; 5μm - 3μm - 1μm. From there they were finished on their respective Adaee and Ark whetstones then stropped on clean leather only before each shave. After each shave the blades were given about 6 laps on clean demin.

Maybe it is my honing technique or the quality of each of these two natural whetstones but I could not notice any real difference in my shaves from either of these two whetstones. Maybe it is the steel but both SRs are identical.

I don't have a lot of experience with either of the two whetstones. Each has only been used on about half-a-dozen SRs over the past few months. I have only honed about a hundred SRs on various whetstones over the past few years so there are still things for me to learn.

The main thing to remember is that this comparison is between these two whetstones that I have. All natural whetstones are different, even from the same quarry and manufacturer.

I am just reporting my own experiences. Others may have different experiences.
 
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No pasted strops used either before or during my comparison test. I'm not a pasted strop sort of bloke.

Both SRs were initially taken back to lapping films; 5μm - 3μm - 1μm. From there they were finished on their respective Adaee and Ark whetstones then stropped on clean leather only before each shave.

Maybe it is my honing technique or the quality of each of these two natural whetstones but I could not notice any real difference in my shaves from either of these two whetstones. Maybe it is the steel as both SRs are identical. After each shave they were given about 6 laps on clean demin.

I don't have a lot of experience with either of the two whetstones. Each has only been used on about half-a-dozen SRs over the past few months. I have only honed about a hundred SRs on various whetstones over the past few years so there are still things for me to learn.

The main thing to remember is that this comparison is between these two whetstones that I have. All natural whetstones are different, even from the same quarry and manufacturer.

I am just reporting my own experiences. Others may have different experiences.

And that's all you can do. I appreciate all of the experiments folks take time to post about. After 100 or so razors honed you know what you're doing and how to compare each honing. Continue on brother, happy honing
 

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
Within the next week or two I might try this comparison test again, this time using oil on the Ark. May be interesting.
 
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My experience has been different using the Adaee Cnat and Black Arks. My Cnat seemed to have no honing property... on the fingers, it is glass-like and I can't feel any resistance. With the Black Arkansas, it is also glass-like but has some resistance on the finger, like a fine surface.

Black Arkansas is my favorite finisher so I have bias towards that. The Cnat, with slurry, it dulled the edge slightly. With water & water + soap, it muted the feedback and didn't do much in sharpness.

I did obtain another Cnat, the common one with brown casing, and that feels different than the Adaee. It has the resistance like the Black Ark but is softer and with different feedback. I may have gotten a dud stone from Adaee and with the natural stones, it's always a bit of a gamble.

*Now that I think of it, I had a very similar result from the Adaee Cnat compared to the ILR. Both very hard, dulled the edge with slurry, and with water/water+soap, muted the feedback with no change in sharpness. The ILR did have some resistance on the surface with the finger but produced a similar result as the Adaee.
 

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
Good point @Timeclo. That may have been eliminated for me as, before starting this comparison, I lightly dressed the faces of both whetstones with 1k grit W&D to try and get consistent ssurfaces. That may have contributed to my results.
 
Good point @Timeclo. That may have been eliminated for me as, before starting this comparison, I lightly dressed the faces of both whetstones with 1k grit W&D to try and get consistent ssurfaces. That may have contributed to my results.
I dressed all the stones with my Atoma 600 and still resulted in different resistance on the surface.
 

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
I dressed all the stones with my Atoma 600 and still resulted in different resistance on the surface.
I may also have had different resistances on each surface. I do not remember. My main interest was the resultant shaves.

I did find that the Adaee was slightly "stickier" than the Ark towards the end of honing, both using water and then lather.
 
So your responses/ruling out my first suspects make me think the next likely culprit is that the steel is punching out. Some overly hard or poorly tempered steels can act like this and it tends to present itself with a few characteristics:

1. They do better with pastes/spine leading finishing vs traditional finishing.
2. They tend to do better with faster stones and/or slurry than with nonslurrying or harder stones.
3. Finishes tend to push together as the steel becomes limiting, not the finish.

Extreme examples (pakistan steel) create razors that just won't shave... but there are middle-ground razors out there that can take a shaving edge, but "max out" below what a typical vintage straight razor can easily handle.

This made me google the titans... and from skimming a handful of threads from Google Pg1; it looks like they are Taiwanese, claimed to be made with Japanese VG10... and there's a handful of reviews saying that cheap and much higher edge angled GD's outperform them in head to head comparisons with some owners doubting if they are truly VG10 or if VG10 is a good steel for razors if they in fact are made of it.

The quality of Titans is a whole other hornets nest I've got no interest in stirring and can't comment on; but do you have to similar vintage razors you can use for a comparison?
 
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rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
@SliceOfLife, Titan makes SRs in basically three types of steel that they refer to as:

ACRM-2
A high carbon steel with a little added chromium, but not enough to properly call it stainless steel, probably about on par with what Gold Dollar call "stainless steel". This normally has a hardness of about 60 RHC. I and others find that it honed well and takes a very good, long-lasted edge.​
VG10HZ
A VG10 type stainless steel. This steel has a hardness in the early 60s RHC. I find it harder to hone and produces a rather "toothy" edge (could be my honing technique) that can easily deteriorate. I no longer have any of these SRs.​
ACRO
A special type of stainless steel that Titan claim they developed in conjunction with their Japanese steel manufacturer, having a very fine grain structure, good intergranular bonding. These three properties are not easily achieved in most stainless steels. It can be given a hardness from about 64 RHC to near 70 RHC (used in this comparison), depending on the type of heat treatment used. I find the ACRO T.H-70 very hard to hone (lots of laps) but it can take and holds a wonderful edge.​
In fact I shaved with one this morning (off diamond pasted balsa) and experienced one of my closest, most comfortable shaves ever. The shave was noticeably better than what I experienced from my T.H-70s off the Adaee and black Ark.​
The Titan ACRO T.H.64 SRs are similar but a little easier to hone. Out of the two ACRO steel type SRs, my preference is for the T.H-70s.​
As for vintage SRs (with softer steel) to try, yes I have a few but that was not the purpose of this comparison. Here I wanted to compare two identical SRs of known very hard steel, one off my Adaee and the other off my black Ark. One day I may similarly compare two "identical" vintage SRs, although there can be more variation in steel quality with "identical" vintage SRs.
 
I learned, from a fellow straight razor shaver, a great tip that has served me well: when finish-honing a hard steel razor, go very slowly on the finishing strokes. The difference is night and day. I actually really like my hard steel razors now. I guess they must have been microchipping before. It's easy to imagine that that problem would be even more pronounced on a superhard stone like an Ark. I have not yet dared to put one of my hard-steel razors on an Ark, but you can bet that when I do, I will finish very, very slowly.
 

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
@Herrenberg, a great tip that I concur with. When honing my very hard SRs, particularly the stainless steel ones, it takes many light and slow honing laps. Not just finishing but on all honing medium.

Many do not have the patience to properly hone very hard-steel SRs. I was initially one of them. Fortunately it is not uncommon for these very hard SRs, when properly honed, to take a great edge and hold their keen edge for a long time.
 
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