Same here. I also once posted an image of a blade that had been finger-wipe "cleaned" and the exact same blade with exact same lighting that had been cleaned properly. There was a huge difference in visible information. For razors if I use a scope I always prefer to use side-lighting to show scratches better personally. Not a fan of the built-in ring light for razor imaging. Good quality microscopes use a collimated light, cheapos like mine and pretty much every other one sold on e-commerce sites not so much.
Chronicles of a terrible honer ;)
- Thread starter combatcrab
- Start date
Same here. I also once posted an image of a blade that had been finger-wipe "cleaned" and the exact same blade with exact same lighting that had been cleaned properly. There was a huge difference in visible information. For razors if I use a scope I always prefer to use side-lighting to show scratches better personally. Not a fan of the built-in ring light for razor imaging. Good quality microscopes use a collimated light, cheapos like mine and pretty much every other one sold on e-commerce sites not so much.
- Thread starter
- #162
Hi all!
To preface what I'm about to post, I must say that it is purely for my benefit. I'm not assuming to be teaching anything new to those reading. In fact, the following assertions may all be wrong.
The video posted by @Christian1212 got me thinking. I have seen so many variations in stroke angle (in relation to hone) in pics and videos that I had dismissed these variations as being important. After watching the video, it made me think about it again. Unless the spine thickness is perfectly uniform across the length of the blade, any variation in stroke angle will affect the bevel.
consider any pressure applied to the blade during a rolling x stroke. Theoretically, every point along the bevel (A) rides opposite of a point along the spine (B).
These two points change pretty dramatically when the stroke angle changes.
I'm all over the place when I'm honing, no attempt at consistency. It's easy to assume, given the above, that each varying stroke is working toward a different bevel. This has to be part of the reason why I can sit and chase a bevel for hours with no result.
Yesterday and today I spent a few hours with a consistent, perpendicular stroke angle. I found a bevel, and took plenty of time working the razor through a progression.
DMT 1200
Kota 3K
King 6K
Kota 8k
Shapton 12k
There's room for improvement, but for the first time I felt like I really achieved some sort of success. It's noticably sharper than previous attempts.
It does NOT pass a hanging hair test, but I shaved with it this morning and really enjoyed it.
I was going to comment on my 3K vs DMT and mention that I think the 3K is coarser... But I'm having issues uploading those photos. Another time. It's the flip side of the 8k, which also seems coarse. It might just be a crap stone.
[Edit] I got all photos loaded.
To preface what I'm about to post, I must say that it is purely for my benefit. I'm not assuming to be teaching anything new to those reading. In fact, the following assertions may all be wrong.
The video posted by @Christian1212 got me thinking. I have seen so many variations in stroke angle (in relation to hone) in pics and videos that I had dismissed these variations as being important. After watching the video, it made me think about it again. Unless the spine thickness is perfectly uniform across the length of the blade, any variation in stroke angle will affect the bevel.
consider any pressure applied to the blade during a rolling x stroke. Theoretically, every point along the bevel (A) rides opposite of a point along the spine (B).
These two points change pretty dramatically when the stroke angle changes.
I'm all over the place when I'm honing, no attempt at consistency. It's easy to assume, given the above, that each varying stroke is working toward a different bevel. This has to be part of the reason why I can sit and chase a bevel for hours with no result.
Yesterday and today I spent a few hours with a consistent, perpendicular stroke angle. I found a bevel, and took plenty of time working the razor through a progression.
DMT 1200
Kota 3K
King 6K
Kota 8k
Shapton 12k
There's room for improvement, but for the first time I felt like I really achieved some sort of success. It's noticably sharper than previous attempts.
It does NOT pass a hanging hair test, but I shaved with it this morning and really enjoyed it.
I was going to comment on my 3K vs DMT and mention that I think the 3K is coarser... But I'm having issues uploading those photos. Another time. It's the flip side of the 8k, which also seems coarse. It might just be a crap stone.
[Edit] I got all photos loaded.
Last edited:
I think you would be much happier with a good 1k stone -- that 3k is definitely leaving a very rough edge and is the reason you aren't getting a good HHT. Shapton, Naniwa, Bester are all fairly inexpensive at the 1k grit and will produce a far better edge.
Ditch the DMT, they produce deep scratches that are very difficult to polish out on finer stones, just the nature of diamond abrasives.
It also looks to me as if you need more polishing, but that could be the lighting too.
Ditch the DMT, they produce deep scratches that are very difficult to polish out on finer stones, just the nature of diamond abrasives.
It also looks to me as if you need more polishing, but that could be the lighting too.
- Thread starter
- #164
I think you're right. My next purchase will definitely be a better 1k
As far as the angle relative to the hone changing the bevel honing angle: this can happen, but it has nothing to do with the thickness of the spine not being parallel. On a theoretically "perfect" straight razor, the flat from hone wear at the spine and the bevel create a planar surface. No matter how you angle a plane, it should always sit flat on the hone.
However, there are often deviations from flatness in the spine and/or bevel that CAN cause this issue - not to mention that it's very easy - especially for guys newer to razor honing - to accidentally hit a stabilizer or the end of the plunge grind near the spine that's sticking out past the bevel plane, which will also cause angular shifts.
However, there are often deviations from flatness in the spine and/or bevel that CAN cause this issue - not to mention that it's very easy - especially for guys newer to razor honing - to accidentally hit a stabilizer or the end of the plunge grind near the spine that's sticking out past the bevel plane, which will also cause angular shifts.
Have to respectfully disagree here Eric. A common occurrence is a spine that is thicker at the heel end due to heel leading strokes if you rotate the razor more perpendicular to the hone the thicker spine now comes into play and the angle is raised.
- Thread starter
- #167
Theoretically, every point along the bevel (A) rides opposite of a point along the spine (B).
[Face-Palm] I labeled the diagrams backwards.
i spent too long looking at the original diagram and gave up on trying to figure it out.
your rolling x stroke diagram seems off too.
Vic, are you referring to riding up on the "step" at the end of the hone wear? If that's the case, that is one of the caveats I was talking about. If not, you might want to think about that a little further - keeping in mind my description is relying on a razor with a theoretically flat bevel and spine - parallelism is irrelevant. A plane is a plane. It can't sit any other way than flat. Keep in mind that most razors aren't really flat, and all the other imperfections mentioned play into this too.
- Thread starter
- #170
Yeah, a/b is switched on all of them.
- Thread starter
- #171
With one razor in particular, I did a lot of honing at about 45 degrees to the stone. At this angle, there's a good bit of spine that never touches the stone. When brought back perpendicular to the hone, I could quickly see a second bevel appearing near the toe. This was my "ah-ha" moment.
Yes, this is what I'm talking about. I believe that combatcrab was talking about that also, " Unless the spine thickness is perfectly uniform across the length of the blade, any variation in stroke angle will affect the bevel."
I do also understand what you are saying. If there was a high spot on the spine, and it stayed in contact with the stone, the bevel angle would remain constant regardless of stroke angle.
- Thread starter
- #173
This is where I get confused. If there is a high spot on the spine, it will determine the bevel angle. What happens during the stroke when the high spot is removed from the stone?
In my mind the remainder of the spine moves closer to the stone and the bevel angle becomes more acute. I suppose this is fine if the high spot drops off at the same point in relation to the bevel, but a change in honing angle will change this. ....I think.
You are correct, that's why I added the bold part in that sentence.
- Thread starter
- #175
Got it. Thanks
Yep, best bet is to either get a razor that has the spine tapered out properly (this is how the razors should have been made in the first place!) or to try to keep the angle of attack relative to the hone as close as possible to the same and stay away from that step.
It is good that you are thinking about this stuff IMO combat crab. I've talked to some very experienced people about this very thing and had several of them not know what I was talking about.
still loving that you are keeping this up, and appreciating the read. it's one of the posts i make sure to read as there are new comments.
Let me begin to state that i just use my naked eye, or a 20% Loupe to observe my Bevel so there may be variance between what i see and what you're seeing with your microscope. That being said, when i go through my progression my 1.5k Shapton leaves an edge that has visible scratch pattern, and each stone in my progression i move up to has their own unique scratch pattern. but by the time i'm done with my progression I always have ~98% mirror finish with space scratches. One thing that seems to be eluding me is in your pictures of your hone progressions, you never seem to obtain something that with lesser magnification would become what i would imagine was "mirror".
Whatever you changed it's obvious that you had an AHA moment, because your edge is much smoother. I think this alone will significantly change your shaving game, but if you either 1) get a smoother bevel setter so you have to spend less time in the later stages or 2) spend a lot more time on the 3k to remove the DMT scratches, i feel that you will get a lot closer.
I also want to reiterate by the time you get to 12k you want to be using little pressure. With each stone that i move up to in my progression i start heavy to remove scratches from the old stone, but quickly move into very light pressure. I've found that this light pressure is what "finishes" the razor and prepares it for the next stone in the progression.
Keep your chin up, you're doing great. I hope you have many AHA moments to come, and the frustration you feel is replaced with understanding and appreciation. You've made great progress, keep your nose to the grind stone (ahem, if you will).
Let me begin to state that i just use my naked eye, or a 20% Loupe to observe my Bevel so there may be variance between what i see and what you're seeing with your microscope. That being said, when i go through my progression my 1.5k Shapton leaves an edge that has visible scratch pattern, and each stone in my progression i move up to has their own unique scratch pattern. but by the time i'm done with my progression I always have ~98% mirror finish with space scratches. One thing that seems to be eluding me is in your pictures of your hone progressions, you never seem to obtain something that with lesser magnification would become what i would imagine was "mirror".
Whatever you changed it's obvious that you had an AHA moment, because your edge is much smoother. I think this alone will significantly change your shaving game, but if you either 1) get a smoother bevel setter so you have to spend less time in the later stages or 2) spend a lot more time on the 3k to remove the DMT scratches, i feel that you will get a lot closer.
I also want to reiterate by the time you get to 12k you want to be using little pressure. With each stone that i move up to in my progression i start heavy to remove scratches from the old stone, but quickly move into very light pressure. I've found that this light pressure is what "finishes" the razor and prepares it for the next stone in the progression.
Keep your chin up, you're doing great. I hope you have many AHA moments to come, and the frustration you feel is replaced with understanding and appreciation. You've made great progress, keep your nose to the grind stone (ahem, if you will).
Scratches being visible is pretty heavily dependent on the lighting and viewing angles. Magnification too. I can see them quite readily even at 20k with the right lighting and angle. Or I can change those variables and see a mirror at a MUCH lower grit level. They are much smaller and shallower at high grit levels but they're still there. About the only time I haven't been able to "find" the scratches is when using very fine stropping compounds on leather or similar flexible substrate. Even then they're still there but I can't see them anymore.
All of this is one reason you can't really judge anyone's edges by looking at the bevel scratches. Who knows what angle the blade was presented to the scope and where the lightlsource was positioned?
Always try to look at the apex, that's where you want to concentrate your effort. I would suggest to @combatcrab that he should place a matte black background under his blade when imaging, this will give a better contrast for viewing the "edge of the edge." I use a black silk lens cleaning cloth myself.
All of this is one reason you can't really judge anyone's edges by looking at the bevel scratches. Who knows what angle the blade was presented to the scope and where the lightlsource was positioned?
Always try to look at the apex, that's where you want to concentrate your effort. I would suggest to @combatcrab that he should place a matte black background under his blade when imaging, this will give a better contrast for viewing the "edge of the edge." I use a black silk lens cleaning cloth myself.
Last edited:
I probably misread that. I thought he was talking about the spine being perfectly parallel. As in 0.250" along it's length, rather than tapering uniformly from say 0.250" to 0.240" - if he meant a curved or serpentine (non-planar) surface then yup, I agree.
