- Thread starter
- #181
I will absolutely do this
Chronicles of a terrible honer ;)
- Thread starter combatcrab
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I will absolutely do this
- Thread starter
- #182
I think you read it correctly. The concept, as I have made it out to be in my mind, isn't exclusive to a single high-point or curvature. If you drew a line on the back of the spine that was level with the bevel edge, and if that line isn't parallel to the hone, I think hone angle comes into play.
I'm either terribly misunderstanding the geometry (very possible), or I'm not explaining very well.
Ok, then I didn't misread it. If the surface is flat, then no, the angle that it is presented to the hone does not matter. Think of it this way - if you take a flat piece of rectangular steel, say 1" x 4" x 1/8" and lay it on your hone, no matter how you turn it, it will lay flat, right? Your razor - if it is flat - is the same. Now hollow grind that same theoretical piece in the middle leaving 1/16" of flat at either extreme so that it sort of resembles the part of a straight razor blade that would be on the hone and lay this on the hone - why would it be any different now? Any way you turn it, it will lay flat. The problem is when you have a surface that isn't flat or that has a step worn/honed in it. That can result in an angular shift.
BTW you are not alone in misunderstanding the geometry at play. I've run into this common misconception in many machine shops I've worked in, and with many people (both machinists and engineers) who are supposed to know better.
I think maybe for you it comes down to the fact that the INCLUDED angle will vary along the length of the blade in such a case as you describe, but once the planar surface is established, it stays that way no matter how you turn the blade. This maybe is a little muddled for you.
BTW you are not alone in misunderstanding the geometry at play. I've run into this common misconception in many machine shops I've worked in, and with many people (both machinists and engineers) who are supposed to know better.
I think maybe for you it comes down to the fact that the INCLUDED angle will vary along the length of the blade in such a case as you describe, but once the planar surface is established, it stays that way no matter how you turn the blade. This maybe is a little muddled for you.
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I think that combatcrab is talking about a straight but tapered spine.
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- #185
This is causing me a lot of cognitive dissonance.
When you explain it, it makes perfect sense. Then I keep going back to this scenario in my head.
If the distance between hone and mid-spine is greater in one area, I'm almost positive that it hones at a greater angle. It wouldn't make any difference if we only honed one side of the bevel, but since we're flipping back and forth, that's when the "thickness" matters...right?
In the above example, a counter-clockwise rotation moves "B" and "C", relative to a stationary "A", closer to a thicker portion of the spine.
...right?... I dunno.
Yes, I think you are right.
Nope. As I said, I think the angle change along the length is getting you mixed up. That has nothing to do with how the planar surface that makes up each side of the razor that makes contact with the hone sits when it's contacting the hone. Look at it this way. And I'm going to simplify this because we are actually talking about a compound angle here, but let's just say your taper (straight but tapered spine) presents an included angle along the longitudinal axis of the razor of 1° from heel to toe. The midline in your example would be at an angle of 0°30' to the hone when the blade is resting on the surface. If you have a flat hone and a flat razor, no matter which way you rotate that blade, it will always be 0°30' between the hone surface and that midline. And 1° between the hone surface and the top of the razor.
For this angle to change and create a secondary bevel, one side of the razor would have to be lifted or dropped. That can't happen by definition if you've got two planar surfaces that remain in contact.
I have ground and supervised the grinding of many shear blades and chipper knives, etc. in the machine shop, and so I've worked with plenty of guys on this exact misunderstanding. One of the "tricks" when grinding these blades when the surface being ground is narrower than the wheel is to rotate the blade so that it covers almost the whole wheel width while the grinder table is traversed - this prevents the wheel from wearing unevenly and stops grooves from wearing into the wheel. You can rotate the blade to any angle you want and the surface remains in the same plane. I have had to demonstrate this more times than I can count to get some guys to believe it.
For this angle to change and create a secondary bevel, one side of the razor would have to be lifted or dropped. That can't happen by definition if you've got two planar surfaces that remain in contact.
I have ground and supervised the grinding of many shear blades and chipper knives, etc. in the machine shop, and so I've worked with plenty of guys on this exact misunderstanding. One of the "tricks" when grinding these blades when the surface being ground is narrower than the wheel is to rotate the blade so that it covers almost the whole wheel width while the grinder table is traversed - this prevents the wheel from wearing unevenly and stops grooves from wearing into the wheel. You can rotate the blade to any angle you want and the surface remains in the same plane. I have had to demonstrate this more times than I can count to get some guys to believe it.
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- Thread starter
- #187
Thanks for getting me straightened out. I think can finally put that notion out of my head.
In both the drawing and Eric's explanation there is also a taper in the blade width which would be needed to form two planes. Is this the case with the razor in question? I'm guessing the razor does not lie flat on the hone on one or both sides.
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- #189
The razor I drew is tapered opposite of the one I'm working with. It's the same effect for the concept that I previously believed to be true.
The razor I'm working with it's significantly thinner near the toe and near-origional thickness near the heel. This is due to lots of honing at a very wide angle, keeping the rear/heel spine off the stone entirely.
No, I'm talking about the width dimension not the thickness.
If the two sides of the razor form planes, then the width would taper proportionally to the thickness of the spine taper.
If the two sides of the razor form planes, then the width would taper proportionally to the thickness of the spine taper.
Yup. Vic is right. He means the dimension from spine to edge. So like 5/8", 6/8" etc. If your razor has that situation you describe it will not be straight/parallel along that dimension. And I think that is what combatcrab is saying in his last post. It's a little difficult to describe objects in 3 dimensions in a way that's easily understandable sometimes without a labeled drawing.
And if the angle IS changing, and a secondary bevel is created when you rotate that blade on the hone, then you don't have a flat surface touching the hone - in one way or another. Whether that's a curve, a high point etc.
And if the angle IS changing, and a secondary bevel is created when you rotate that blade on the hone, then you don't have a flat surface touching the hone - in one way or another. Whether that's a curve, a high point etc.
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- #192
Haha, you give me too much credit! Vic had me figured out. I think I understand now.
I've read this saga with some interest. Being cheap and willing to adopt, I chose films and the Burr Method. I honed my first $10 on the first attempt and 10 thereafter on cheap, 100 year old used and abused razors.
I now have two stones that I am learning to use.
Why is honing so difficult for some folks?
I now have two stones that I am learning to use.
Why is honing so difficult for some folks?
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- #194
Well, speaking only for myself, many things are more difficult for me because I'm stubborn and tend to overthink.
This is probably easier for everyone else. Especially you.
Is it really overthinking? I mean @Slash McCoy wrote out a method to establish a bevel and get to shave ready. How is not following his or someone else's method overthinking?
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- #196
Good point. I'm probably just dumb.
I didn't suggest that at all. If you want to get a razor to shave ready, it's really very much just going through a process. It's repeatable. After some time, you can move into something that it truly your own. Maybe I am butting into something that is none of my business. Would just like to help.
The non self adhesive 3M films are cheap, the marble tile is cheap. The process works and is repeatable on inexpensive 100 year old, $10 razors.
If you think you have learned a lot about honing now (by making mistakes on some of your Gold Dollars) you might want to pick up a cheap vintage razor and just apply all of those lessons to that razor.
It may be that you have screwed up the geometry of the first razors that you practiced on and that is just compounding your problems. As you have said, you definitely are overthinking much of this.
It's really not about magnification and mirror finishes. Take a razor that you haven't honed the crap out of
and lightly take it through the progression and shave with it. If it shaves as well as the Whipped Dog...you're there. There is no magical edge.
On the other hand, if you are spending an hour on honing, you are probably (definitely) doing something wrong.
It may be that you have screwed up the geometry of the first razors that you practiced on and that is just compounding your problems. As you have said, you definitely are overthinking much of this.
It's really not about magnification and mirror finishes. Take a razor that you haven't honed the crap out of
and lightly take it through the progression and shave with it. If it shaves as well as the Whipped Dog...you're there. There is no magical edge.On the other hand, if you are spending an hour on honing, you are probably (definitely) doing something wrong.
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- #199
I haven't said this enough: I'm really very grateful for all the coaching, advice, and support that the members of this board have given me. It's overwhelming and it has kept me fired up.
That said, there might be a misconception (for some) that I'm in a hurry, or that I'm not enjoying this process. This is partly my fault because I have expressed frustration from time to time. Those emotions are always short-lived. I have spent hours, many many hours, grinding these cheap blades into misshapen butter-knives. I've loved every second of it, and I learn at least a little bit every time.
I COULD be doing this faster. Of this I have no doubts. This is my preferred approach to learning new skills and in my humble opinion it's the best way for me. I'm all in, failing fast and failing often, learning valuable lessons with each iteration. I don't want to follow a process. I want to intimately know the process, how it works and why it works. This is more valuable than success on the first try. You may not agree.
I'm glad that you're following me as I learn. That's why I'm posting. Just know that I'm not going to switch methodology for the sake of speed. I've got a box full of razors and a bench lined with stones. I'm going to master this...or die trying.
That said, there might be a misconception (for some) that I'm in a hurry, or that I'm not enjoying this process. This is partly my fault because I have expressed frustration from time to time. Those emotions are always short-lived. I have spent hours, many many hours, grinding these cheap blades into misshapen butter-knives. I've loved every second of it, and I learn at least a little bit every time.
I COULD be doing this faster. Of this I have no doubts. This is my preferred approach to learning new skills and in my humble opinion it's the best way for me. I'm all in, failing fast and failing often, learning valuable lessons with each iteration. I don't want to follow a process. I want to intimately know the process, how it works and why it works. This is more valuable than success on the first try. You may not agree.
I'm glad that you're following me as I learn. That's why I'm posting. Just know that I'm not going to switch methodology for the sake of speed. I've got a box full of razors and a bench lined with stones. I'm going to master this...or die trying.
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Life is good!
