CCW questions
- Thread starter Voomie
- Start date
I'll just c+p from the other CCW thread-------------
Wild Bill Hickock killed over 100 men and favored a .36 cal blackpowder revolver firing an 80 grain .375 diameter round ball at approx. 1000fps for approx. 180ft/lbs of energy.
A modern Hornady Critical Defense .380 is a 90 grain .375 diameter hollowpoint designed for maximum stopping power, fired at 1000fps for 200ft/lbs of energy.
Basically, you are using something slightly better than one of the most famous and prolific gunfighters in history.
------------------------
Personally, I prefer something that has a little more "ooomph", and it is reasonable to expect even better performance from larger calibers, but the statement that a .380 is too underpowered to be effective is not historically accurate.
There are times when 15 rounds of .45 won't be enough either.
exactly.. with this setup you don't have to decide it you want to 'lug it along' or what you are going to wear.. if I'm casual as I almost always am since retiring I hate wearing a belt. 99% of the time it's jeans and a polo or shorts and a t-shirt or 'bowling shirt' the wife calls them.
Truth. I carry a XD-9 Sub-Compact, but the LCP is a good buy (@$300brand new). Heck, they're small enough to fit in your pants pocket if need be. They take some getting used compared to a larger sidearm, but you really should practice regularly with anything you intend to carry and expect to trust your life with. My only complaint with the LCP is due to it's size, it's a lot of "bang" very close to your hand. Still, for a handgun so easily concealed, it's a worthy trade-off. A day or two at the range, and it's a non-issue.
Wild Bill practiced every day and most of his fights he knew were coming. He was a better shot than most of us.
I was very nearly in a situation where 21 rounds of .45 would likely not have enabled survival, thus why the 'six rounds of .380' comment. If i'm going down i'm bringing as many of them along as possible.
I've always erred on the side of firepower, previously professionally i carried either 210 rounds of 5.56 or 700 rounds of 7.62mm with 30 rounds of 9mm just in case.
In my profession before that, i saw around 20 people either get shot or immediately postshooting as well as around 300-400 suicides. I am well aware of what works and what does not, and the .380 'can' work. But a lot of the time, even the larger calibers have troubles. I saw a guy get double tapped from contact distance, center chest by a cop with a .40 Glock and it ended up going hand to hand after adrenalin/shock kicked in and 3 large cops were fighting to pin down one small, shot twice in the chest burglar.
I was very nearly in a situation where 21 rounds of .45 would likely not have enabled survival, thus why the 'six rounds of .380' comment. If i'm going down i'm bringing as many of them along as possible.
I've always erred on the side of firepower, previously professionally i carried either 210 rounds of 5.56 or 700 rounds of 7.62mm with 30 rounds of 9mm just in case.
In my profession before that, i saw around 20 people either get shot or immediately postshooting as well as around 300-400 suicides. I am well aware of what works and what does not, and the .380 'can' work. But a lot of the time, even the larger calibers have troubles. I saw a guy get double tapped from contact distance, center chest by a cop with a .40 Glock and it ended up going hand to hand after adrenalin/shock kicked in and 3 large cops were fighting to pin down one small, shot twice in the chest burglar.
Modern pistol technique teaches a Failure Drill (double tap+assess+well aimed shot to head). Hopefully, more folks who carry a gun in the service of the American people are getting up-to-date training. It is disconcerting to know that there are a lot of civilians who are better trained than the people who are supposed to be protecting them, saw it a lot in the martial arts, too.
Protracted gunfights are really beyond the scope of any CCW, no matter if one carried a .45acp, .454 Casull, or .500 S&W. Don't know if combat loadouts and war stories are helpful for the guy who is still trying to figure out if he even needs a firearm.
Sounds like you see plenty of trouble, stay safe.
Protracted gunfights are really beyond the scope of any CCW, no matter if one carried a .45acp, .454 Casull, or .500 S&W. Don't know if combat loadouts and war stories are helpful for the guy who is still trying to figure out if he even needs a firearm.
Sounds like you see plenty of trouble, stay safe.
I carry mostly IWB, SOB and SS anything from a 1911 to a 380 and have never been made.
I also have a leather vest with 2 HUGE pockets (that will fit a 44mag) for when Im riding my bike.
I have pulled mine twice in 10 years but have not had to go any further than that (luckily)
I also have a leather vest with 2 HUGE pockets (that will fit a 44mag) for when Im riding my bike.
I have pulled mine twice in 10 years but have not had to go any further than that (luckily)
Due to your line of work, you'd know better than I... but I swear I've read somewhere that this sort of thing is characteristic of handguns, in general. They're just not going to drop someone like a rifle, period. If I recall correctly, it was stated that a human is 50% more likely to survive a handgun shot as compared rifle of a similar caliber.
It is a Clintism- "The only purpose for a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should have never laid down." Clint Smith http://www.thunderranchinc.com/director.html
I think military/leo/security vs 99% of folks who ccw are totally different things. ccw is to defend yourself from deadly force it's not a license to go looking for trouble. I would think any perp would have a good chance in court turning the table on someone carrying a 45 and 2 additional mags as being the aggressor.
in RVN I carried a m16 and multiple bandoleers of ammo.. and a s&w 6" 357 and a russel on my boot but certainly don't see the need to go to Wally World like that.
of course your mileage my vary..
in RVN I carried a m16 and multiple bandoleers of ammo.. and a s&w 6" 357 and a russel on my boot but certainly don't see the need to go to Wally World like that.
of course your mileage my vary..
Exactly. Discretion, alertness and judgement should rule your travels, not necessarily a need to being well enough armed to "handle" any situation that could come along. For me, if I ever found I needed more than the full cylinders or magazine of a carry piece, I really shouldn't have been there in the first place.
Remember, if you ever do have to shoot a man, and you live to tell about it, your troubles are probably just beginning. Even if the police/courts find it a justifiable shooting, it's the civil suit that can ruin your life.
We're all different, and have different views, so this is just how I view things. To each his own.
Gun control: hitting what you shoot at.
A wise (cc instructor) friend of mine always said "With this licence comes great responsibility"
I think it is important that people remember a concealed handgun should always be the last resort!
I think it is important that people remember a concealed handgun should always be the last resort!
3" 1911 every day with a Milt Sparks VersaMax II and a Beltman 1.5" belt, I'm around police every day and have never been made that any of them said. Most people are flat out shocked if I ever have to remove the gun at work when getting into a car with narrow seats etc and swear they had no idea I was carrying. Heck, my wife didn't realize I'd started carrying for over a month and a half using this setup until she went to put her arm around my waist unexpectedly one morning as I was leaving. The right holster and belt make a ton of difference. Doesn't hurt that I'm 6' 230 with extra fat to hide things, and I can wear an untucked Dickies work shirt to work every day.
All the shootings were civilian, and I was an observer not a participant, except the near miss.
You can hit what you aim at all you want but sometimes, they bring friends.
In my case, they brought four. So 'what's in the gun+a reload" is my bare minimum. Criminals do tend to travel in groups. Five or six shots may not be enough for ONE guy even if you hit him with most of them. People do weird things under stress, and tend to miss a lot, even with training. I carry the biggest caliber i can control (.45, or 9mm with hollowpoints), with as much as i can comfortably hide (gun+2 reloads) whenever possible. Smallest i've gone is a micro-.380 or .38 pocket piece and a reload.
As to military pistol training, it tends to vary wildly, but most don't get much. Ours was once a year, 45 rounds for practice 45 for qual, double taps and triples ranging from 3-25m. Since we were overseas both ammo and range time were heavily restricted or i'd be training on the side, there, we couldn't. Even rifle training was highly restricted and we rolled out every day with them.
Had some very interesting times and a lot of close calls, never ended up dropping the hammer on anyone either in uniform or out. Two times if we had (and it was split second one way or the other) there would have been 60+ rounds of 5.56 going one way and some serious international complications.
You can hit what you aim at all you want but sometimes, they bring friends.
In my case, they brought four. So 'what's in the gun+a reload" is my bare minimum. Criminals do tend to travel in groups. Five or six shots may not be enough for ONE guy even if you hit him with most of them. People do weird things under stress, and tend to miss a lot, even with training. I carry the biggest caliber i can control (.45, or 9mm with hollowpoints), with as much as i can comfortably hide (gun+2 reloads) whenever possible. Smallest i've gone is a micro-.380 or .38 pocket piece and a reload.
As to military pistol training, it tends to vary wildly, but most don't get much. Ours was once a year, 45 rounds for practice 45 for qual, double taps and triples ranging from 3-25m. Since we were overseas both ammo and range time were heavily restricted or i'd be training on the side, there, we couldn't. Even rifle training was highly restricted and we rolled out every day with them.
Had some very interesting times and a lot of close calls, never ended up dropping the hammer on anyone either in uniform or out. Two times if we had (and it was split second one way or the other) there would have been 60+ rounds of 5.56 going one way and some serious international complications.
Shoulder carry is a thing of the 80's and bad cop shows. There is a reason no one in competition or the military use it. It's also slow. Inside waist band, either on the hip or appendix is best and very concealable. Appendix carry is NOT for everybody.
G19, plus two extra mags. I don't plan on shooting all those rounds, but a hard fall breaks floor plates, panic reloads may cause a dropped mag etc. I error on the side of caution. For work I carry a G21sf and I love that gun to death! I may be replacing my 19 with a 30 here soon to accept the mags from the 21 for a quick extra thirteen or so! I carry IWB (In the waist band) at maybe a four o'clock position. That way my sides look somewhat normal, but is still easy to defend. I carry Speer Gold Dot ammo for the simple fact that if I have to shoot someone and when I get called to court I didn't use "evil cop killing bullets" since that is what I am given to go out into the public with daily for my service weapon. I will be looking into an OWB kydex holster here in the coming months and may go with a Raven Concealment, or maybe hit an upcoming company that I have been really impressed with, Armadillo Concealment. What ever you carry there are two rules, 1) don't look for trouble, and 2) dont' be a hero.
For instance, you are walking your dog at night and hear a woman screaming. You go to see whats up and see a guy tieing her up to a tree. Do you present your weapon and take control of the situation? You'll be going to jail, that was a concentual "role play" adult act. Introduce the weapon when the situation is at the point it is needed and not a second before. You are not johnny law and LEO likes a great witness more than a hero 99% of time.
For instance, you are walking your dog at night and hear a woman screaming. You go to see whats up and see a guy tieing her up to a tree. Do you present your weapon and take control of the situation? You'll be going to jail, that was a concentual "role play" adult act. Introduce the weapon when the situation is at the point it is needed and not a second before. You are not johnny law and LEO likes a great witness more than a hero 99% of time.
http://www.olive-drab.com/gallery/photos/patton_lifecover_19410707_sm.jpg
That is General Patton.
http://www.adirondackleatherproducts.com/holstersa.html
This is the current issue M9 shoulder holster.
I don't care about your groupthink. It works well for me, as well as others, including the US military.
Last edited:
Sorry, posting history doesn't support your point unless there is data showing Patton's gunfights drawing from said holster?
Just because the US military does it, does not mean it is right. It maybe good enough for you but go to a match or any of the well known trainers and see what they use and advocate. Such as Kyle DeFoor (SEAL and now trainer of SEALs, uses appendix) and Larry Vickers (Delta Force trainer, IWB, about 4 o'clock position). These guys are the best of the US military. Speaking as an 8 year Marine grunt, the military is very often stagnant, slow to adapt, and trains for a two way range using outdated marksmanship training instead of combat training. I know both men personally and have been trained by them at their civilian classes (carbine and handgun).
However, you can disprove me. What is your time from a concealed draw to hit say a 3x5 card at 25'? Mine from appendix is 1.5 seconds.
I've attached a video of me shooting the FAM Triple Nickel drill. Had a malfunction (improperly seated mag) but you can see the speed of the draw and the concealment. IWB/appendix carry also lends themselves well to hot weather attire. How do you conceal that shoulder rig in the summer?
[video]http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/baxshep/SANY0027.mp4[/video]
Just because the US military does it, does not mean it is right. It maybe good enough for you but go to a match or any of the well known trainers and see what they use and advocate. Such as Kyle DeFoor (SEAL and now trainer of SEALs, uses appendix) and Larry Vickers (Delta Force trainer, IWB, about 4 o'clock position). These guys are the best of the US military. Speaking as an 8 year Marine grunt, the military is very often stagnant, slow to adapt, and trains for a two way range using outdated marksmanship training instead of combat training. I know both men personally and have been trained by them at their civilian classes (carbine and handgun).
However, you can disprove me. What is your time from a concealed draw to hit say a 3x5 card at 25'? Mine from appendix is 1.5 seconds.
I've attached a video of me shooting the FAM Triple Nickel drill. Had a malfunction (improperly seated mag) but you can see the speed of the draw and the concealment. IWB/appendix carry also lends themselves well to hot weather attire. How do you conceal that shoulder rig in the summer?
[video]http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/baxshep/SANY0027.mp4[/video]
