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CCW - only 2 guns….

Just some food for thought. Michael de Bethencourt is a snub nose revolver instructor who demonstrates utilizing a brace of revolvers. A brace being two guns carried on your person.

A man could have 12 rounds if he carried a pair of Ruger LCRs in 327 Federal Magnum as an example.
 
Would love to hear more detail on the issues you experienced with the Kimber - you piqued my interest!

Many failures to fire. Timing issue where cylinder would rotate but not to lock before hammer fell. Every few shots were like that.
 
Just some food for thought. Michael de Bethencourt is a snub nose revolver instructor who demonstrates utilizing a brace of revolvers. A brace being two guns carried on your person.

A man could have 12 rounds if he carried a pair of Ruger LCRs in 327 Federal Magnum as an example.

aka the NY reload. Old school gun fighter technique that works.
 
Many failures to fire. Timing issue where cylinder would rotate but not to lock before hammer fell. Every few shots were like that.
That’s really disappointing. I sure hope mine doesn’t do that. That one may have been the exception, not the rule though. Looking around online - and speaking with several LGS’ in my area who sell every K6S in 72 hours they can get in stock, it sounds like overall they are quite reliable. The early guns had a design defect - where they used a Titanium firing pin, that would often not strike primers properly and break/snap. They replaced that part with a steel part in future guns, and that seemed to resolve the issue. Aside from that (and the occasional problem gun which nearly all manufacturers suffer from these days) they appear to be pretty decent, so it’s a bummer you experienced one that was not to standard.

My LGS claims (per capita) they have to send back Rugers and S&W revolvers to their respective factories far more frequently than the Kimbers - and now push the Kimbers as their main recommendation for wheel guns as a result.

The above is an opinion formed entirely on qualitative rumblings and internet browsing, so don’t misread it as a strong endorsement or fact. I know if I have a bad experience with a brand or a particular gun, I’m generally pretty soured of it. For instance - right now I own four Rugers - a Mini 14 .223, a Gunsite Scout in .308, a Single Six .22lr/mag convertible revolver and a Redhawk in .44 mag. The mini 14 is the least favorite rifle I own, the .44 mag had to go back to Ruger 2X, the Single Six .22 revolver works fine - but built embarrassingly rough/sloppy for a $900 pistol. The Gunsite Scout though - is absolutely marvelous, unsettlingly accurate, fast handling and is my “if I could only have one” rifle. That said - I’m soured from the brand based on my experience with the other’s, which is why I haven’t considered an LCP or a LCR for carry, despite them having pretty stellar reputations.

Again though sorry to hear about the Kimber issues. It took a lot for me to buy a Kimber - and I’ve been waiting years to give them soak time in the field to see if they are up to snuff. Nick has a Kimber Team Match 2, that was a jam o matic, Kimber never resolved it’s issues - and it was a miserable gun to shoot, which entirely soured me of the brand. They make some neat products I’d love to own - so hopefully my experience with my K6S next month will win me over.
 

nortac

"Can't Raise an Eyebrow"
Glad to hear about your positive experience with the Ruger Gunsite Scout rifle, I've always wanted one.
 
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That’s really disappointing. I sure hope mine doesn’t do that. That one may have been the exception, not the rule though. Looking around online - and speaking with several LGS’ in my area who sell every K6S in 72 hours they can get in stock, it sounds like overall they are quite reliable. The early guns had a design defect - where they used a Titanium firing pin, that would often not strike primers properly and break/snap. They replaced that part with a steel part in future guns, and that seemed to resolve the issue. Aside from that (and the occasional problem gun which nearly all manufacturers suffer from these days) they appear to be pretty decent, so it’s a bummer you experienced one that was not to standard.

My LGS claims (per capita) they have to send back Rugers and S&W revolvers to their respective factories far more frequently than the Kimbers - and now push the Kimbers as their main recommendation for wheel guns as a result.

The above is an opinion formed entirely on qualitative rumblings and internet browsing, so don’t misread it as a strong endorsement or fact. I know if I have a bad experience with a brand or a particular gun, I’m generally pretty soured of it. For instance - right now I own four Rugers - a Mini 14 .223, a Gunsite Scout in .308, a Single Six .22lr/mag convertible revolver and a Redhawk in .44 mag. The mini 14 is the least favorite rifle I own, the .44 mag had to go back to Ruger 2X, the Single Six .22 revolver works fine - but built embarrassingly rough/sloppy for a $900 pistol. The Gunsite Scout though - is absolutely marvelous, unsettlingly accurate, fast handling and is my “if I could only have one” rifle. That said - I’m soured from the brand based on my experience with the other’s, which is why I haven’t considered an LCP or a LCR for carry, despite them having pretty stellar reputations.

Again though sorry to hear about the Kimber issues. It took a lot for me to buy a Kimber - and I’ve been waiting years to give them soak time in the field to see if they are up to snuff. Nick has a Kimber Team Match 2, that was a jam o matic, Kimber never resolved it’s issues - and it was a miserable gun to shoot, which entirely soured me of the brand. They make some neat products I’d love to own - so hopefully my experience with my K6S next month will win me over.

I have had and have many Rugers and Smiths. One Smith went back to the factory. Several Rugers have gone back. Don't have numbers to back it up but suspect Ruger and S&W produce many times the numbers that Kimber does. Every manufacture will produce a bad firearm every so often.

Not sure I would put much into what the LGS says. Factory repairs are usually consumer directly to factory.

Either way, do the research and hope for the best.
 
I have had and have many Rugers and Smiths. One Smith went back to the factory. Several Rugers have gone back. Don't have numbers to back it up but suspect Ruger and S&W produce many times the numbers that Kimber does. Every manufacture will produce a bad firearm every so often.

Not sure I would put much into what the LGS says. Factory repairs are usually consumer directly to factory.

Either way, do the research and hope for the best.

Agreed on every manufacturer having a bad firearm every so often. RE: not putting much stake in what the LGS says, I’m not so sure. As far as I understand in these parts, firearms have to be shipped from an FFL, you can’t ship direct to the manufacturer. If you have a problem with a gun, you take it back to where you bought it and they run point on contacting the manufacturer, shipping it out, etc - so if there are problems, they’ll see almost all of them.
 
Agreed on every manufacturer having a bad firearm every so often. RE: not putting much stake in what the LGS says, I’m not so sure. As far as I understand in these parts, firearms have to be shipped from an FFL, you can’t ship direct to the manufacturer. If you have a problem with a gun, you take it back to where you bought it and they run point on contacting the manufacturer, shipping it out, etc - so if there are problems, they’ll see almost all of them.
It’s been a couple of years since I sent anything back, but when I received the shipping label from manufacturer I just put the gun in its case unloaded (they usually want you to send a spare magazine as well) then inside a plain box. I believe only FedEx will ship guns and you have to bring it to the main hub, not one of those satellite outlets. They asked me what was in box and I said “gun.” When they ship it back you have to sign for it. I’m in California.
 
It’s been a couple of years since I sent anything back, but when I received the shipping label from manufacturer I just put the gun in its case unloaded (they usually want you to send a spare magazine as well) then inside a plain box. I believe only FedEx will ship guns and you have to bring it to the main hub, not one of those satellite outlets. They asked me what was in box and I said “gun.” When they ship it back you have to sign for it. I’m in California.

Have shipped via FedEx and UPS. The manufacturer provides the label and the pickup. One manufacturer required a hub drop off, can't recall which one.
 

OkieStubble

Dirty Donuts are so Good.
There have been some changes with shipping back firearms via FedEx and UPS. From what I understand, Private, non FFL owners can not ship firearms directly back themselves by using these hubs.

Either the firearm has to be taken back to where it was purchased and they ship it back, or the firearm can be taken to another independent FFL licensed dealer and they can ship it back for service.

I tried to get Browning to send me an RMA thru my email so I could print it off and take it to the nearest FedEx hub to ship a pistol back to them, but Browning said there were changes recently made and I could not do that anymore.

So I had to take the Browning pistol back to the Academy Sports where I purchased it and had the sporting goods manager ship it back for me.

I don’t know if these are just the new rules in my state or if they apply everywhere, but Oklahoma is a pretty good gun free state. Before this new rule, I had trouble two other times with getting some firearms back from an anti gun FedEx Manager at my closest hub.
 
So ditch the Kahr, an unreliable gun is worse than no gun. Because when you really need it, it won't be there. As someone up the list said, if you like and train with and know glocks then carry glocks. They are stone simple to use, and unbelievably reliable.

I am a 2011 guy, SA all the way, but if I had the restrictions you do, and was going to carry, it would glock even thought I don't have any attachment to them and find them remarkably boring I know they would always do whats needed. My business partner, who I shoot with regularly has well over 150,000 rounds through his Glock. The only failures were due to bad ammo.

Seriously looks at the 26 as well as the 43. 26 has slightly higher capacity (10-9x19) in a similarly sized package.
 
lots of wall o text.

this is my primary carry

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and my second

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the only reason the Sig is the secondary carry is that the girsan is 10mm. the nice thing is both meet the restrictions of all states, but that was not the reason I bought the. the reason i bought them is with either one I can get a 3 inch group at 10 yards, and with a .45 or 10mm, a 3 inch group is more than enough
 
Spoke to Kahr today, my P380 should be back at my LGS tomorrow. The gunsmith working on it basically had to replace almost everything but the slide, frame and barrel. I can’t decide if that’s a good thing or a bad thing, but wow - literally everything is not confidence inspiring wrt their quality control.

Will take it for a spin later this week and let you know how she runs!
 

nortac

"Can't Raise an Eyebrow"
@joel, thanks for the update and I'm glad that Kahr has taken the time to make things right. Hopefully all will be satisfactory, and your faith may be restored with the brand. Do let us know how it all shakes out, Good Luck!
 
Spoke to Kahr today, my P380 should be back at my LGS tomorrow. The gunsmith working on it basically had to replace almost everything but the slide, frame and barrel. I can’t decide if that’s a good thing or a bad thing, but wow - literally everything is not confidence inspiring wrt their quality control.

Will take it for a spin later this week and let you know how she runs!
I think that is a good thing. If they just polished things up then you would have the exact same mechanism that failed. If it now proves reliable, it’s like a whole new gun.

I carry an LCP II that had to go back to Ruger, they replaced the barrel and all is good now. If they had just polished the chamber, I’d probably never trust it. I also like 1000 rounds through a gun to test reliability….

You might like the Kahr. My old CW9 has been 100% for many years and I just can’t swap it out for a higher capacity micro9…. It’s just too perfect and is a great carry size. I do replace springs every 1500-2000 rounds, but only as maintenance.

Good thread.

Best Wishes,
Brian
 
Well I already covered this with irrefutable fact, so now I feel warranted to engage in a gentlemanly debate. First - let me begin by saying everyone has to draw their own line in the sand about the level of risk they're willing to accept across dozens of areas every day. I know folks who haven't eaten a SINGLE processed food, meat of any kind, or had added sugar in 20 years, work our daily and have next to no body fat. They regularly brag about their non-existent cholesterol levels, they get quarterly blood panels and monitor their vitamin levels, etc. The probability they live more years than I, is very high... but I enjoy food and convenience too much to spend that much time, energy and discipline. That said - I see exactly why he's doing it, it's logical - but his line in the sand over the steps he can take to control risk in that area is a long ways from mine. I don't disparage his choice, or try to tell him how much in life he's missing out on - as focusing on controlling risk, makes him feel like he's in control of his lifespan and makes him feel good/comfortable. If someone wants to sleep with a Desert Eagle and 10 magazines strapped to themselves in their PJ's at night, with a Glock 40 in 10mm as a backup, and a Benelli M4 and a AR next to their bed at night - then rock and roll. I don't care what other people carry - as long as folks are following the law, and not putting others at harm/risk thinking because of their equipment or large amount of ammo they're toting, they can insert themselves into situations they have no business doing. So - with that long disclaimer out of the way, hopefully you'll know that the comments/points below are not meant to change your mind, belittle your point of view, or pass ANY judgement against you or your beliefs. Frankly, i'm all for well trained citizens packing oodles of ammo, wearing armor, and b-hole puckered at the ready to take on bad guys, as it means I can do a lot less, and if i'm lucky and find myself in a pinch, even if I'm armed - perhaps someone else with better equipment for 200 yard off hand pistol shots can take care of the problem for me.

Alright - no punches pulled, here it comes:

1. I live in a literal bubble. I waste too much time going into the specifics, but it's considered one of the safest towns in the country based on the extra funding we provide our depts - their absurd staffing levels and the cutting edge tech they deploy. It's literal big brother, and frankly i'm not happy about it (cameras at ever exit and intersection with face and license plate recognition). Long story short, if you're not from the area, and you start randomly driving around without a clear destination, or stopped somewhere too long and your plate is tied to an address not in that direct area, you're going to see an officer pulling them over, or talking to them (while they're parked) in 10 min or less. I've got lots and lots of ridiculous stories I could share, such as when someone stole an amazon package from my front porch (it was a $7 running hat) and they had THREE squad cars roar up my door in sub 5 minutes with lights and sirens blaring. These guys don't mess around. My risk in this immediate area - is very low, period.

2. The second anyone starts to quote Jeff Cooper, Massad Ayoob, some random general or famous soldier - my Mall Ninja alarm goes off. Most of these guys, especially Cooper and Ayoob made their living off stoking fear, and are no different than social media "influencers" - they're magazine/book "influencers" and seminar "influencers" and Ayoob is now also a social media influencer. These folks make a literal fortune stoking fear, and their sense of power, influence, worth and value is achieved by doubling down on that "what if". You can quote anyone all you'd like - but the hard facts are the hard facts. You're more likely to intentionally, or accidentally shoot yourself with your own gun, than another human in self defense. It's not just a LITTLE more likely, mind you - it's orders of magnitudes. If you want to really focus on mitigating threat and protecting yourself and your family, you wouldn't carry a gun - full stop. The guy who has an AD and shoots his pickle off, or blasts a hole in his butt cheek is the same guy who a day prior would tell you they're safety conscious, it would never happen to them, etc. Accidents happen, that's why they're called accidents - and while you can mitigate many/most - **** happens. The fact is, anyone who feels they won't be part of the majority (who kills oneself intentionally, or has an accidental discharge harming themselves or another, or has a family member get access to the gun and use it to harm another) and will more likely be part of the minority (who takes a 40 yard shot with a pistol at a bad guy in a mall and becomes a hero), is simultaneously insecure, and overconfident. Everyone has their own level of insecurity and overconfidence and there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, I wouldn't ever carry a gun, if I felt secure enough to think nothing would happen to me, and that my skills/abilities are good enough to stop threats, and never endanger myself or others, even by accident. Despite knowing the facts and hard data behind it - I still choose to carry... but I acknowledge, accept and agree i'm more likely to hurt myself or an innocent, than have to use the gun in self defense.... but I feel the chance of me hurting myself or an innocent is so low, it's worth risking my health and freedom over. I'm also a gun guy, and a lover of finely made tools, so being able to add another tool to my belt is exciting. I also train and shoot more than anyone I know (which admittedly, isn't a huge sample set) who has a CCW permit, including active police officers. All of that said - i'm not a cop, and I'm not going into harms way - and I am a believer in math and science, and I acknowledge and accept the facts. You can talk about the .000001% chance of occurring situations until the end of time, and they're pretty fun to squabble over - but it's b/s shop talk. You could be hit and killed by a small bubblegum sized meteor falling from the sky, drop dead from a brain aneurism - the list goes on and on.... but the simple fact remains (and is often ignored) the risk of most citizens having a life or death encounter requiring the legal deployment of lethal force from a firearm is next to 0.

3. As I said in a prior post, there are SO many other things we have far more direct control over, that we absolutely know can/will kill us, or we will have to experience - and we take no action. I was chinwagging with a morbidly obese chain smoker in my CCW class, and could help but judge him in my head. He was going on and on about how he was going to keep his carry gun next to the shower, in case he was attacked while showering, and that he'd refuse to step into another post office again, since he couldn't go in heeled, etc. As I get older, I try VERY hard not to judge others, and honestly - if that's what it takes to make HIM feel safe and happy, then as long as he doesn't hurt anyone, more power to him... but he will absolutely die from his smoking and eating habit, he already had diabetes from it (and he was in his 30's), it's literally killing him as we're talking and he's sucking on his cigarettes, and all he can focus on is mall ninja situations. In 2 of my 3 motorcycles I carry first aid kits, a portable jump starter, a tire repair kit AND an electronic tire inflator with slime system, a siphon (in case I run out of fuel), a 1 liter bottle of backup fuel, a backup GPS, an emergency packable down jacket, sunglasses, a hat, sunscreen, multiple water bottles and electrolyte powder. I also wear an airbag jacket 100% of the time I ride, and one of my motorcycles even has an airbag system built in. I have had to use EVERY one of those backup items over the years, and some have really saved my bacon - and I tend to take a lot of risks, so I like to be prepared. I'm like that across the board with everything I do - whether it's Scuba Diving, racing cars/motorcycles, flying planes, etc, hence my desire for a CCW permit. All of that said - as someone who prepares for the worst in almost every aspect of life, I have found a reasonable balance - or line in the sand I draw that works for me, and makes me feel secure and confident, but in moist sports, hobbies, or day to day activities in life, you can quickly take them to the extreme, and the internet is VERY good at 1. Giving extremists a large microphone 2. Connecting like minded individuals, who further bolster and feed their extreme views. This is a good time to quickly pause and re-iterate, I am not casting judgement, or making accusations, or labeling you or anyone else as an "extremist" as everyone has their own gauge - one persons extreme is another's norm - and again, as long as they're not hurting others, doing things that put others at risk, or infringing on another's rights/freedoms - I could care less what anyone does on their own time, and even more so if I don't have to see it or hear about it. That said - any "average joe" citizen (IE: not a cop, soldier, security guard, judge, individual being actively stalked/threatened, etc) that lives in a reasonably safe area that feels they need to walk around strapped and ready, is at least on the spectrum of extremism.

4. Not saying this is you - but the folks i've met face to face who are truly expecting and preparing for the worst case self defense situation, do not have the skill/training to face it, only the gear. No judgement, it's cool knowing you're packing the same gun the Seals use, or that you have enough ammo on hand to take on a militia - but i've never met anyone toting that gear that has been in sufficient physical condition to run a mile in under 8 minutes, quickly jump up off the ground, dodge punches, versed in basic hand to hand combat, weapon retention, etc. Now, the folks I've met and shot with for 1-3 days who ARE in exceptional physical condition, and are trained in hand to hand combat, and are former operators, are generally carrying something rock solid, but basic. A G43, a G19, a Shield 9mm, etc - and one backup mag. If you've met 900 folks that are Delta Force AND Navy Seals at the same time, and they CCW a bazooka - then I have no reason to doubt you, and if that's why you feel you need to pack so much heat - rock and roll brother. My experience has been anything but.

5. Again - I point to my target I shared earlier. My draw and two mag dumps are performed in sub 7 seconds (FAR better than the 10 10 10 drill) and you can see the results and the distance with a G43, that is not an easy gun to shoot fast and accurately - it is very unforgiving. I know Jerry Miculek can do 27 rounds in 3.7 seconds, and do so more accurately, and I know I'm not world class shooter, but again - look at my target. I cannot be convinced that my performance isn't better than 99% of shooters worldwide. There are a LOT of folks better than me in that 1%, i'm not a fool, but I have no doubt in my mind I can accurately engage moving threats at 50 yards with that gun, and I can go from concealed to 17 holes in a baseball sized area in less than 7 seconds. I can do the El Presidente Drill in 7 seconds (from concealed NOT OWB), but have gotten into the high 6's more than once. Pro's are doing it in 4-5 seconds, with larger guns. Bottom line - I am not at all concerned about the gear i've chosen and my ability to get the job done if called upon. I could have bought a nice Mercedes for the amount of $ I have spent over the years in range fees, ammo (I used to shoot 1-2K rounds a week for several years), and training courses. I feel confident I could neutralize 3-4 targets inside of ~20 yards in less than 7 seconds if there's an open line of sight. That is a ridiculously unlikely scenario, and frankly already well beyond the realm of what I think is a corner case situation. I also think folks with more ammo are still not going to end up on top if they're taking on more armed assailants than that... unless they're John Rambo, have body armor on, and armed with an assault rifle.

6. Citizens who feel they need to be prepared for the worst 100% of the time, and are ALWAYS packing heat, never seem to be wearing body armor. This makes no sense to me - a revolver and body armor is a better combo than a Glock 17 with 31 round mags in your underoos. Here's the thing though - body armor isn't cool, it's hard to geek out on, it's not "manly", you can't brag to your friends about it, etc - so the focus remains on gun talk, ammo talk, and always being armed. If you're planing for that Jeff Cooper or Ayoob situation where you're taking on the entire Chinese armor, why aren't you wearing body armor 100% of the time you're not in the shower or swimming? My point is, it's fun to talk about guns, ammo, calibers, stopping power etc, but the REAL tactics and tools to best prepare and protect yourself are boring. It's lots (and I mean LOTS) of shooting, training and wearing body armor.

7. With all of that said, I cannot and will not ever be convinced that it makes any logical sense in my neighborhood, to change into clothes necessary, or spend ~3-5 minutes "gearing up" to carry a semi-auto with a backup mag to walk my dogs around the block for 20 min. I also cannot be convinced, that the risk of a life and death struggle I can't retreat or hide from is sufficient in the 10-15 minute round trip to go to the supermarket to grab some bananas and a box of arugula, that I need to be packing any gun, let alone a semi with a backup mag. That said - If I had a 10oz gun in a pocket holster that was effectively zero effort to carry, and I could go from unarmed to armed in the 3 seconds it would take to jam the holster in my pocket, i'd absolutely carry it - mainly because I think those small, ultra light guns are really neat - not because I am expecting to need it in a life or death struggle. I might - but if I did, it would be a situation I normally wouldn't have a gun at all, and the cylinder full of bad guy medicine sure beats fists. Not to be a broken record, but this is again why I'd call this "the gun to carry, when i'm not carrying a gun."

At the end of the day, everyone manages their own respective levels of what they consider acceptable risk. I feel I plan for the unexpected across the board in everything I do - and I do very diligent research and I put in the requisite shoe leather. In every area, they'll be a group of folks who feel that's not nearly enough, but such is life - I drag my knees and elbows around laguna seca on a 200+ HP motorcycle that weighs just over 400 lbs, but i'll look at someone significantly overweight and think that's not a risk i'd like to take. It's all perspective, but you can't live a happy and healthy life if you're planning for the extreme situation in every aspect of life. Who wants to be a bubble boy/girl?
Right on about actual stats and mall ninja mentality vs real world survival situations. The two things that have shocked me most is watching LE qualify and how pathetically easy it is to qualify for a CC permit. You do NOT have to know how to actually shoot to be either. I as well got my concealed carry before we got constitutional carry in Texas. I do disagree with your opinion that you are safer unarmed, but seeing as how I live in somewhat of a bubble myself I rarely actually exercise my right to carry. If I feel a need, laws be damned, I will. As a lifelong firearms enthusiast I will be the one who does NOT shoot myself if God forbid I am ever forced to draw a weapon, but I’m definitely not a trained operator nor young and in shape anymore. That realization, IMO is that I need a force equalizer such as a handgun MORE, not less as I still need to ensure sue I ability for myself, a wife and young son. It would just look like an old man with titanium knees going down in a pile of hot brass so everyone else can run vs being able to shoot and move…More dangerous than the man who won’t run is the old man who can’t, lol.
Another thing in the big gun debates that annoys me to no end is open carry. I’m a staunch 2A guy, but I don’t agree with putting a loaded gun in easy reach of whoever is faster or more powerful than the person with a gun on their hip. It also intimidates people and is a flare up waiting to happen. I’m all for concealed- and knowing a population may be carrying is enough to discourage a lot of criminals. For this reason I disagree with gun free (sitting duck) zones, but I don’t think we need people parading around like Wyatt Earp in crowds.
 

OkieStubble

Dirty Donuts are so Good.
Right on about actual stats and mall ninja mentality vs real world survival situations.

You’re very late to this thread. I would suggest, that the derogatory term and definition of ‘mall ninja’ is and can be such a wide varied definition, that the people who use it, are either over confident in their own knowledge or skill or training. Or, can easily offend by ignorantly, blindly or unknowingly, categorizing, mislabeling and offending others or groups of others, who possibly don’t belong there; and actually, are or could be quite knowledgeable or experienced in such matters.

While one person’s simple definition of a ‘mall ninja’ could be someone who actually has no knowledge or skill with firearms or tactics, yet dresses out to the nines in tactical gear…. Do you realize and understand, that you yourself can or could be labeled a ‘mall ninja’ just because you yourself are an admitted ‘gun enthusiast?”
Surely, the definition of that label is so wide and varied it can include you in it? :)

There is nothing more worse impo, than someone who thinks they know what they are doing with firearms and considers themselves a knowledgeable enthusiast, yet will attempt to define degrade or downplay others enthusiast experiences or knowledge with firearms or tactics, with a derogatory term as mall ninja. That term sir, imo, has no place in a gentleman’s forum if it is used in regards to any person in that forum.

Putting all this into context. If someone who wants to only carry a North American Arms .22 derringer in their gang infested neighborhood while walking their dog around the block feels like it is enough and adequate protection for them; and isn’t being an over simple, naive fool?

Then in all fairness, the person who wants to carry a Glock .40 in their safe, upper crust gated community and feels the same adequate protection, shouldn’t be labeled a mall ninja either. Anything above or below these is un-gentlemanly hyperbole and should never be used to describe anyone in this forum.

Also, in my state, those wanting to obtain their CCW license, do have to take an 8 hour mandatory class which teaches them our states laws in regards to self defense and carrying and they have to show they are proficient at handling and firing their chosen firearm. While it is a very minimalistic approach, who is the all knowing, all important, expert gun stud, who gets to decide on the standard of enough training or proficiency for everyone else? Me? You? Or some other Mall Ninja? :)

You saying LEO’s don’t have to know how to shoot is absolutely wrong also. There is training and proficiency guidelines and qualification scores they have to meet. Again, maybe it’s not enough in your personal opinion?

But as a civilian, what do you have under your belt to judge or ascertain their amount of adequate training or proficiency? If your amount of personal training qualifies you to be in judgment of them?

Wouldn’t that also put you in the very definition and label of being a ‘Mall Ninja’. That you so adamantly agree about in your post? If it does? Then welcome to the mall ninja club. If it doesn’t, we should be careful throwing that label around in a gentleman’s firearms sub forum where most here, are very knowledgeable and very experienced with firearms and their uses and tactics. And while it’s a very diverse group here, from old to young, to experienced and newbie CCW’s and experienced LEO’s and Military alike, non of them, are mall ninja’s. Why? Because that’s simply, just an derogatory label one uses to be offensive to others. Something that should be above us who post in a gentlemen’s forum. :)
 
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While one person’s simple definition of a ‘mall ninja’ could be someone who actually has no knowledge or skill with firearms or tactics, yet dresses out to the nines in tactical gear…. Do you realize and understand, that you yourself can…
Yes! Not trying to belittle anyone with the Mall Ninja statement, but it’s a well known statement in gun circles referring to people who think they know everything because they buy a lot of high end equipment and then don’t train and learn how to use it. I understand different levels of proficiency, and exactly where I stack up in that hierarchy. Better than most gun owners who never shoot or do so once every year or two, but I don’t even belong at the range at the same time as the serious enthusiast and pros. Just knowing where I stack up by definition keeps me out of mall ninja territory. Mall Ninja to me is the guy who spends $2000 on golf clubs and thinks he is Tiger Woods because he went to the driving range once, and he is more dangerous armed than not. The local shooting ranges are full of them, and that’s why I’m very selective about where I will shoot. I’m not claiming to be an operator, swat team member, three gun champ etc, but I’ve had gun safety drilled into my head since birth From my father, my first official fun safety course at 10 in Tennessee. I personally know a few people who have been shot in hunting accidents. No doubt firearms are a hobby, and as we acquire them, tinker with them l build them and shoot them we continue to learn. The one critical difference with firearms as opposed to a hobby such as shaving is that I’ve never heard of anyone accidentally killing themselves or someone else with the latest razor, shaving cream or AS. I was admittedly impressed with the academic portion of the Texas concealed class and thought it was an excellent class about law, and most importantly responsibility and stressing that the primary idea is to avoid conflict at all cost, and not to try to be a vigilante. The actual firearms proficiency part, however, was extremely lacking IMO. From reading your other post it is obvious you are an experienced gun guy, and I would bet a steak dinner that you would be shocked at just how bad it was at my shooting class. Out of 20 in that class, I felt there was maybe 3 that had any business handling a firearm at all and many had never even touched a pistol and had to have help loading it to qualify, which was laughably easy. With one instructor managing a line of 20, half of whom had never touched a pistol, I admit I was nervous. Add to that the fact that if any of the new shooters ever needed to operate a pistol during an adrenaline dump, I’m betting on the bad guy. I’ve spoken with many Veterans who have said pistol training is very limited as compared to to rifles in the service, but I admittedly have no firsthand knowledge of that. I have been actually present when police officers were qualifying and it was an eye opener. I once had a conversation with a special forces soldier at a sporting clays event for veterans and we were joking about the mall ninja phenomenon. I said “if you cross the law, no amount of camouflage plastic and nylon purchased at Acadamy is going to save you from the pros and their equipment“. The soldier just grinned and said nothing would save them from HIM, and his training and experience made him the lethal piece of equipment- I bet he’s right. At the end of the day, proficiency comes with practice and instruction, private or professional. A $3000 custom pistol is a paperweight if you can’t operate it and do so under duress.
I’m not claiming to be the end all be all expert in anything, but I’m more than well qualified enough to see who can handle a gun safely and it isn’t rocket science to see where the holes are on a paper target- or not. Firearms safety and proficiency standards to get a license to carry in Texas are IMHO woefully deficient, no matter how great the written part of the exam, and I will always defer to my own judgement when it comes to whether I deem a situation, law, product or person a threat to safety. That said, from a legal, constitutional and human rights perspective I 100% support constitutional carry but have many common sense reservations about open carry. I don’t claim to have a comprehensive solution to all these individual issues. Respectfully, I used Mall Ninja in reference to a mindset and behavior and it was not directly nor indirectly directed at any Gentlemen in this forum, yet it “triggered” (gun humor, don’t shoot) you enough to toss it back at me in a condescending and seemly personally targeted rant calling me a mall ninja, and you know nothing about me or my level of experience with firearms, which may be far more extensive (or less) than your own. Why the assumption, and the lecture?
 
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OkieStubble

Dirty Donuts are so Good.
Yes! Not trying to belittle anyone with the Mall Ninja statement, but it’s a well known statement in gun circles referring to people who think they know everything because they buy a lot of high end equipment and then don’t train and learn how to use it. I understand different levels of proficiency, and exactly where I stack up in that hierarchy. Mall Ninja to me is the guy who spends $2000 on golf clubs and thinks he is Tiger Woods because he went to the driving range once, and he is more dangerous armed than not. The local shooting ranges are full of them, and that’s why I’m very selective about where I will shoot. I’m not claiming to be an operator, swat team member, three gun champ etc, but I’ve had gun safety drilled into my head since birth From my father, my first official fun safety course at 10 in Tennessee. I personally know a few people who have been shot in hunting accidents. No doubt firearms are a hobby, and as we acquire them, tinker with them l build them and shoot them we continue to learn. The one critical difference with firearms as opposed to a hobby such as shaving is that I’ve never heard of anyone accidentally killing themselves or someone else with the latest razor, shaving cream or AS. I was admittedly impressed with the academic portion of the Texas concealed class and thought it was an excellent class about law, and most importantly responsibility and stressing that the primary idea is to avoid conflict at all cost, and not to try to be a vigilante. The actual firearms proficiency part, however, was extremely lacking IMO. From reading your other post it is obvious you are an experienced gun guy, and I would bet a steak dinner that you would be shocked at just how bad it was at my shooting class. Out of 20 in that class, I felt there was maybe 3 that had any business handling a firearm at all and many had never even touched a pistol and had to have help loading it to qualify, which was laughably easy. With one instructor managing a line of 20, half of whom had never touched a pistol, I admit I was nervous. Add to that the fact that if any of the new shooters ever needed to operate a pistol during an adrenaline dump, I’m betting on the bad guy. I once had a conversation with a special forces soldier at a sporting clays event for veterans and we were joking about this same thing. I said “if you cross the law, no amount of camouflage plastic and nylon purchased at Acadamy is going to save you from the pros and their equipment“. The soldier just grinned and said nothing would save them from HIM, and his training and experience made him the lethal piece of equipment. And I bet he’s right.
I’m not claiming to be the end all be all expert in anything, but I’m more than well qualified enough to point out that firearms safety and proficiency standards to get a license to carry in Texas are IMHO extremely deficient, no matter how great the written part of the exam, and I will always defer to my own judgement when it comes to whether I deem a situation, law, product or person a threat to safety. That said, from a legal, constitutional and human rights perspective I 100% support constitutional carry but have many common sense reservations about open carry. I don’t claim to have a comprehensive solution to all these individual issues. Thankfully, I just don’t see hardly anyone open carrying in Houston. How about your neck of the woods?

Excellent post my good man. I agree with many of the things you have said and disagree with very little. However, I do have some different perspectives on things when it comes to CCW and firearms ownership for self defense and home defense purposes.

I get exactly what you are saying, about going to the CCW class and seeing the little old grandma or grandpa who is like 80 years old and while holding their pistol in their right hand, but are attempting to pull the trigger with the middle finger on their left hand! And what makes this worse? Is seeing the CCW instructor actually pass them!

Just because they paid? :)

What we need to understand is, people like that are the anomaly or minority and not the norm when it comes to the general carrying public. However, as is being experienced gun guys, we need to understand, most of the carrying public, while not as bad as that fumbling 80 year old grandma or grandpa, most also, do not have the knowledge, skill set, experiences with firearms and shooting as we do. And they may not ever, as we are also an anomaly and minority with our experience as those without experience.

So how do those who fall into this middle place of the extremes between being to dangerous or unsafe because of age, or frailty, or simply just lack of experience and the extreme of being as knowledgeable in firearms, shooting, tactics, and general overall skill sets as guys like us. How or who determines who should get to Carry a gun for self defense or not? And who determines what is, or isn’t enough training in order to be able to do that?

My questions to you would be?

1. How do you walk into a CCW class and know just by looking, who should be there or not? Or who deserves to stay or be kicked out?

2. If they are brand new to guns with no experience, where do they go after buying a gun, in order to get proficient enough to be able to attend a CCW class in the first place?

3. I don’t know what you have in Texas, but other than an actual CCW class, there isn’t a place for inexperienced folk to go and learn a bunch of need to basics? That’s why they go straight to CCW? Because it’s the only thing available?

4. Look thru the Texas Phone book and see how many places you find that will actually take a dangerous inexperienced newbie with a pistol and get them up to speed before attending a CCW class? There just isn’t really anything out there for the beginner to learn?

5. Can a beginner spend a bunch of money and go to any of the more elite places like Gunsite Ranch? Or Elite Firearms & Training which has locations in Texas and Oklahoma? Do they even take inexperienced newbie’s? If they don’t, where do they go to learn other then a CCW class? And we both know the CCW class are not teaching them anything about gun handling and only concealed carry.

5. Should CCW be only for those who have military or LE training? Or SWAT or Special Forces training in tactics and skill set?

Why is there, this huge gap in the needs of basic firearms training and it’s use between guys like us who are quite knowledgeable; and those who we see at CCW class or the gun range that we can easily tell that they are a danger to themselves and others? Why is the gun carrying community letting these new people to firearms and self protection down, by not providing them enough positive solutions for their training needs?

Maybe there is a new business venture in this for us? We could partner up and call it, “RazrStubbles School of Firearms, Self Defense & Tactics.”

Kinda has a nice ring to it if you ask me. :)
 
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