CCW - only 2 guns….

[OkieStubble]

@OkieStubble I would agree with Springfield Customer Service being top notch.

When I first called them, I actually got a hold of a very rude CS phone representative, who actually seemed very indifferent about my concerns and almost anti-gun In my perception.

However, the magic the Springfield Techs worked on my particular pistol was awesome! They basically took my Particular model of Springfield which already had a match grade bull barrel and match grade trigger, but still, one of their $1000 lower budget models and they basically, customized the feed feed ramp, throat, rails, lock work and timing, as they do for their much more, expensive custom models.

My Range Officer now, still has the looks and finish of a GI 1911, but it’s inner guts and lock work runs and is accurate like a custom competition pistol made for carry. They even put fiber optic up front in top and Novak on the rear.

I love this pistol. I carried Glocks exclusively for over 30 years and own 7 of them. But I think about my Springfield everyday. It’s a love affair for sure.

 

[dojpros]

If I was living in a 10 rd max jurisdiction and could only have 2 guns on the CCW, I would have an M&P in .45 and some flavor of Glock 43/48 in 9mm. Or perhaps, as others have suggested, Identical Glock 43/48 of some sort.

"Shootability" to me is far more important than concealability presuming I an not in NPE. Smaller guns are harder to shoot and harder to train with to get good enough with for them to be a primary over a bigger gun. (I was helping teach a this weekend and saw 2 Sig 365 shooters ultimately brought in bigger guns over a 3 day 850 round course despite the fact that 90% of the rounds were fired 7 yrds and in.)

Concealbility is not the challenge many think it is when they spend real money on a real holster mated to a real gun belt.

Small revolvers are much more challenging to run at distance/speed than most semi-automatic pistols of similar dimensions.

While I own a j frame (fx="back up" ankle/pocket gun), I am not a "I will just put the j frame in pocket to go to the store kind of guy."

 

[OkieStubble]

I concur. If I was constrained to only 10 rounds, I would have to pick up a S&W M&P .45. If its only 10 rounds, I want them to be big bullets in a platform that makes them easy to shoot. I have shot a lot of different handguns in many different calibers, but the accuracy, comfort, reliability and effectiveness I experienced shooting that S&W M&P .45 I rented at the range a decade ago left a lasting impression on me for sure.

I’d go get one, but my Springfield 1911 Commander gets jealous.

 

[oc_in_fw]

When I first called them, I actually got a hold of a very rude CS phone representative, who actually seemed very indifferent about my concerns and almost anti-gun In my perception.

However, the magic the Springfield Techs worked on my particular pistol was awesome! They basically took my Particular model of Springfield which already had a match grade bull barrel and match grade trigger, but still, one of their $1000 lower budget models and they basically, customized the feed feed ramp, throat, rails, lock work and timing, as they do for their much more, expensive custom models.

My Range Officer now, still has the looks and finish of a GI 1911, but it’s inner guts and lock work runs and is accurate like a custom competition pistol made for carry. They even put fiber optic up front in top and Novak on the rear.

I love this pistol. I carried Glocks exclusively for over 30 years and own 7 of them. But I think about my Springfield everyday. It’s a love affair for sure.

I’ve got no complaints about my G43X, but the 1911 just feels perfect in my hand. Can’t wait to buy one.

 

[Three_Bravo]

If you’re carrying a gun not on your permit, you are not protected by the concealed weapons permit, thus you are treated the exact same as a non-permit holding citizen. Depending on the circumstances, they can charge you with a misdemeanor, which involves heavy fines and up to one year in jail. If charged as a felony, up to four years in jail. Getting a weapons charge of that nature would also no longer make you eligible to hold a CCW in California, and that would be the end of your ability to legally carry concealed in the state of California. If you used a weapon in self defense that was not on your permit, and you were obviously in public and concealing it illegally - you have a very good chance of your life being ruined forever. The DA will paint you as a wild vigilante illegally carrying a gun. No jury and most judges in California will care, or be sympathetic about the fact that you have a permit to to carry other guns, the sole focus will be on your ‘wild law breaking.’ Keep in mind, this is just my county, some counties only allow one on the permit, some allow three, some have no limits, and every county makes up their own random restrictions and prints them on the back of the card - it’s pandamonium. That said, I agreed to the terms and signed my name on the dotted line, I’ll do as I’ve committed and stay between the lines.

As a permit holder, you have to also agree to certain terms such as notifying police you are a ccw permit holder and have a weapon on you if you interact with them (traffic stop, etc). If you ever print, or your gun shows, you can also just about guarantee in this part of California, the police will be called, and they certainly might request to inspect your firearm, which you agree to surrender to the police for their examination at their discretion as part of your permit terms.

Bottom line, while it may be stupid - it‘s the law, and a serious one at that - which I plan on following to the letter.

I’m just happy that we can finally get permits, and even then - you can‘t imagine the time, paperwork and cost involved. I’m 9+ months into the process, already qualified at the range and still am probably a month or two away from getting my actual cards to allow me to carry.

insanity. absolute insanity. I applaud you for jumping through all those hoops and still taking measures to carry. That likely deters many men, which, we know, is their end goal with all the red tape anyway. You know the thugs and gang bangers don't give a flying you know what about the law, and do as they please.

 

[joel]

@OkieStubble, great post as always.
@joel, I won't question your choice of firearms for your CCW, you seem to have it pretty well thought out and you obviously are an experienced shooter. I will however challenge you and anyone reading this post on the fallacy and self-delusion of living in a "safe place" in general. While it's great to live in an area of a relatively low crime rate, it sucks to be that 0.1 % who's experience is otherwise. How many times have we heard in the aftermath of some atrocity, "nothing like that has ever happened around here before" by the surviving bystanders? As Jeff Cooper famously has said "You can't make an appointment for an Emergency". When the black flag goes up, you are called to perform, ready or not! Violence and social unrest are on the rise everywhere and there is little reason to believe that will change for the better anytime soon. Do you really think that those criminals that live 30 minutes away from you never leave home and restrict their egregious behavior to their city?

While I have several options to CCW, I never carry two guns as a civilian. Probably my most carried CCW weapon is my old trusty S&W Airweight Bodyguard 5 shot J frame with a speed strip. After that, it's my Kahr PM9 or my SIG P365. On occasion it's a Glock 19 or a 1911. Sometimes it's a S&W M66 2 1/2 in. barrel. I did get a Ruger LCP Max, but so far it has not proved reliable nor accurate enough to rely on for defensive purposes. It is the very, very rare occasion that I leave home without a gun on my person and even then, I have something in my vehicle.

Well I already covered this with irrefutable fact, so now I feel warranted to engage in a gentlemanly debate. First - let me begin by saying everyone has to draw their own line in the sand about the level of risk they're willing to accept across dozens of areas every day. I know folks who haven't eaten a SINGLE processed food, meat of any kind, or had added sugar in 20 years, work our daily and have next to no body fat. They regularly brag about their non-existent cholesterol levels, they get quarterly blood panels and monitor their vitamin levels, etc. The probability they live more years than I, is very high... but I enjoy food and convenience too much to spend that much time, energy and discipline. That said - I see exactly why he's doing it, it's logical - but his line in the sand over the steps he can take to control risk in that area is a long ways from mine. I don't disparage his choice, or try to tell him how much in life he's missing out on - as focusing on controlling risk, makes him feel like he's in control of his lifespan and makes him feel good/comfortable. If someone wants to sleep with a Desert Eagle and 10 magazines strapped to themselves in their PJ's at night, with a Glock 40 in 10mm as a backup, and a Benelli M4 and a AR next to their bed at night - then rock and roll. I don't care what other people carry - as long as folks are following the law, and not putting others at harm/risk thinking because of their equipment or large amount of ammo they're toting, they can insert themselves into situations they have no business doing. So - with that long disclaimer out of the way, hopefully you'll know that the comments/points below are not meant to change your mind, belittle your point of view, or pass ANY judgement against you or your beliefs. Frankly, i'm all for well trained citizens packing oodles of ammo, wearing armor, and b-hole puckered at the ready to take on bad guys, as it means I can do a lot less, and if i'm lucky and find myself in a pinch, even if I'm armed - perhaps someone else with better equipment for 200 yard off hand pistol shots can take care of the problem for me.

Alright - no punches pulled, here it comes:

1. I live in a literal bubble. I waste too much time going into the specifics, but it's considered one of the safest towns in the country based on the extra funding we provide our depts - their absurd staffing levels and the cutting edge tech they deploy. It's literal big brother, and frankly i'm not happy about it (cameras at ever exit and intersection with face and license plate recognition). Long story short, if you're not from the area, and you start randomly driving around without a clear destination, or stopped somewhere too long and your plate is tied to an address not in that direct area, you're going to see an officer pulling them over, or talking to them (while they're parked) in 10 min or less. I've got lots and lots of ridiculous stories I could share, such as when someone stole an amazon package from my front porch (it was a $7 running hat) and they had THREE squad cars roar up my door in sub 5 minutes with lights and sirens blaring. These guys don't mess around. My risk in this immediate area - is very low, period.

2. The second anyone starts to quote Jeff Cooper, Massad Ayoob, some random general or famous soldier - my Mall Ninja alarm goes off. Most of these guys, especially Cooper and Ayoob made their living off stoking fear, and are no different than social media "influencers" - they're magazine/book "influencers" and seminar "influencers" and Ayoob is now also a social media influencer. These folks make a literal fortune stoking fear, and their sense of power, influence, worth and value is achieved by doubling down on that "what if". You can quote anyone all you'd like - but the hard facts are the hard facts. You're more likely to intentionally, or accidentally shoot yourself with your own gun, than another human in self defense. It's not just a LITTLE more likely, mind you - it's orders of magnitudes. If you want to really focus on mitigating threat and protecting yourself and your family, you wouldn't carry a gun - full stop. The guy who has an AD and shoots his pickle off, or blasts a hole in his butt cheek is the same guy who a day prior would tell you they're safety conscious, it would never happen to them, etc. Accidents happen, that's why they're called accidents - and while you can mitigate many/most - **** happens. The fact is, anyone who feels they won't be part of the majority (who kills oneself intentionally, or has an accidental discharge harming themselves or another, or has a family member get access to the gun and use it to harm another) and will more likely be part of the minority (who takes a 40 yard shot with a pistol at a bad guy in a mall and becomes a hero), is simultaneously insecure, and overconfident. Everyone has their own level of insecurity and overconfidence and there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, I wouldn't ever carry a gun, if I felt secure enough to think nothing would happen to me, and that my skills/abilities are good enough to stop threats, and never endanger myself or others, even by accident. Despite knowing the facts and hard data behind it - I still choose to carry... but I acknowledge, accept and agree i'm more likely to hurt myself or an innocent, than have to use the gun in self defense.... but I feel the chance of me hurting myself or an innocent is so low, it's worth risking my health and freedom over. I'm also a gun guy, and a lover of finely made tools, so being able to add another tool to my belt is exciting. I also train and shoot more than anyone I know (which admittedly, isn't a huge sample set) who has a CCW permit, including active police officers. All of that said - i'm not a cop, and I'm not going into harms way - and I am a believer in math and science, and I acknowledge and accept the facts. You can talk about the .000001% chance of occurring situations until the end of time, and they're pretty fun to squabble over - but it's b/s shop talk. You could be hit and killed by a small bubblegum sized meteor falling from the sky, drop dead from a brain aneurism - the list goes on and on.... but the simple fact remains (and is often ignored) the risk of most citizens having a life or death encounter requiring the legal deployment of lethal force from a firearm is next to 0.

3. As I said in a prior post, there are SO many other things we have far more direct control over, that we absolutely know can/will kill us, or we will have to experience - and we take no action. I was chinwagging with a morbidly obese chain smoker in my CCW class, and could help but judge him in my head. He was going on and on about how he was going to keep his carry gun next to the shower, in case he was attacked while showering, and that he'd refuse to step into another post office again, since he couldn't go in heeled, etc. As I get older, I try VERY hard not to judge others, and honestly - if that's what it takes to make HIM feel safe and happy, then as long as he doesn't hurt anyone, more power to him... but he will absolutely die from his smoking and eating habit, he already had diabetes from it (and he was in his 30's), it's literally killing him as we're talking and he's sucking on his cigarettes, and all he can focus on is mall ninja situations. In 2 of my 3 motorcycles I carry first aid kits, a portable jump starter, a tire repair kit AND an electronic tire inflator with slime system, a siphon (in case I run out of fuel), a 1 liter bottle of backup fuel, a backup GPS, an emergency packable down jacket, sunglasses, a hat, sunscreen, multiple water bottles and electrolyte powder. I also wear an airbag jacket 100% of the time I ride, and one of my motorcycles even has an airbag system built in. I have had to use EVERY one of those backup items over the years, and some have really saved my bacon - and I tend to take a lot of risks, so I like to be prepared. I'm like that across the board with everything I do - whether it's Scuba Diving, racing cars/motorcycles, flying planes, etc, hence my desire for a CCW permit. All of that said - as someone who prepares for the worst in almost every aspect of life, I have found a reasonable balance - or line in the sand I draw that works for me, and makes me feel secure and confident, but in moist sports, hobbies, or day to day activities in life, you can quickly take them to the extreme, and the internet is VERY good at 1. Giving extremists a large microphone 2. Connecting like minded individuals, who further bolster and feed their extreme views. This is a good time to quickly pause and re-iterate, I am not casting judgement, or making accusations, or labeling you or anyone else as an "extremist" as everyone has their own gauge - one persons extreme is another's norm - and again, as long as they're not hurting others, doing things that put others at risk, or infringing on another's rights/freedoms - I could care less what anyone does on their own time, and even more so if I don't have to see it or hear about it. That said - any "average joe" citizen (IE: not a cop, soldier, security guard, judge, individual being actively stalked/threatened, etc) that lives in a reasonably safe area that feels they need to walk around strapped and ready, is at least on the spectrum of extremism.

4. Not saying this is you - but the folks i've met face to face who are truly expecting and preparing for the worst case self defense situation, do not have the skill/training to face it, only the gear. No judgement, it's cool knowing you're packing the same gun the Seals use, or that you have enough ammo on hand to take on a militia - but i've never met anyone toting that gear that has been in sufficient physical condition to run a mile in under 8 minutes, quickly jump up off the ground, dodge punches, versed in basic hand to hand combat, weapon retention, etc. Now, the folks I've met and shot with for 1-3 days who ARE in exceptional physical condition, and are trained in hand to hand combat, and are former operators, are generally carrying something rock solid, but basic. A G43, a G19, a Shield 9mm, etc - and one backup mag. If you've met 900 folks that are Delta Force AND Navy Seals at the same time, and they CCW a bazooka - then I have no reason to doubt you, and if that's why you feel you need to pack so much heat - rock and roll brother. My experience has been anything but.

5. Again - I point to my target I shared earlier. My draw and two mag dumps are performed in sub 7 seconds (FAR better than the 10 10 10 drill) and you can see the results and the distance with a G43, that is not an easy gun to shoot fast and accurately - it is very unforgiving. I know Jerry Miculek can do 27 rounds in 3.7 seconds, and do so more accurately, and I know I'm not world class shooter, but again - look at my target. I cannot be convinced that my performance isn't better than 99% of shooters worldwide. There are a LOT of folks better than me in that 1%, i'm not a fool, but I have no doubt in my mind I can accurately engage moving threats at 50 yards with that gun, and I can go from concealed to 17 holes in a baseball sized area in less than 7 seconds. I can do the El Presidente Drill in 7 seconds (from concealed NOT OWB), but have gotten into the high 6's more than once. Pro's are doing it in 4-5 seconds, with larger guns. Bottom line - I am not at all concerned about the gear i've chosen and my ability to get the job done if called upon. I could have bought a nice Mercedes for the amount of $ I have spent over the years in range fees, ammo (I used to shoot 1-2K rounds a week for several years), and training courses. I feel confident I could neutralize 3-4 targets inside of ~20 yards in less than 7 seconds if there's an open line of sight. That is a ridiculously unlikely scenario, and frankly already well beyond the realm of what I think is a corner case situation. I also think folks with more ammo are still not going to end up on top if they're taking on more armed assailants than that... unless they're John Rambo, have body armor on, and armed with an assault rifle.

6. Citizens who feel they need to be prepared for the worst 100% of the time, and are ALWAYS packing heat, never seem to be wearing body armor. This makes no sense to me - a revolver and body armor is a better combo than a Glock 17 with 31 round mags in your underoos. Here's the thing though - body armor isn't cool, it's hard to geek out on, it's not "manly", you can't brag to your friends about it, etc - so the focus remains on gun talk, ammo talk, and always being armed. If you're planing for that Jeff Cooper or Ayoob situation where you're taking on the entire Chinese armor, why aren't you wearing body armor 100% of the time you're not in the shower or swimming? My point is, it's fun to talk about guns, ammo, calibers, stopping power etc, but the REAL tactics and tools to best prepare and protect yourself are boring. It's lots (and I mean LOTS) of shooting, training and wearing body armor.

7. With all of that said, I cannot and will not ever be convinced that it makes any logical sense in my neighborhood, to change into clothes necessary, or spend ~3-5 minutes "gearing up" to carry a semi-auto with a backup mag to walk my dogs around the block for 20 min. I also cannot be convinced, that the risk of a life and death struggle I can't retreat or hide from is sufficient in the 10-15 minute round trip to go to the supermarket to grab some bananas and a box of arugula, that I need to be packing any gun, let alone a semi with a backup mag. That said - If I had a 10oz gun in a pocket holster that was effectively zero effort to carry, and I could go from unarmed to armed in the 3 seconds it would take to jam the holster in my pocket, i'd absolutely carry it - mainly because I think those small, ultra light guns are really neat - not because I am expecting to need it in a life or death struggle. I might - but if I did, it would be a situation I normally wouldn't have a gun at all, and the cylinder full of bad guy medicine sure beats fists. Not to be a broken record, but this is again why I'd call this "the gun to carry, when i'm not carrying a gun."

At the end of the day, everyone manages their own respective levels of what they consider acceptable risk. I feel I plan for the unexpected across the board in everything I do - and I do very diligent research and I put in the requisite shoe leather. In every area, they'll be a group of folks who feel that's not nearly enough, but such is life - I drag my knees and elbows around laguna seca on a 200+ HP motorcycle that weighs just over 400 lbs, but i'll look at someone significantly overweight and think that's not a risk i'd like to take. It's all perspective, but you can't live a happy and healthy life if you're planning for the extreme situation in every aspect of life. Who wants to be a bubble boy/girl?

 

[joel]

Now that I’m retired, my Glocks 23 and 19 have pretty much just sat in the safe doing nothing for the last couple of years. Because I am an enthusiast and like different pistols, I like to train, hone and perfect the skills and tactics in the use and carry of such.

I mostly carry my G43X with an extra magazine in my left front pocket in warmer weather, or on my belt when a button up shirt or jacket can conceal it better in cooler weather. But sometimes it’s a Springfield 1911 and sometimes now, a Ruger .357 revolver. Makes me feel like a black John Wayne.

As @nortac has reminded before; “the extra magazine isn’t because the 10 rounds that is already in your pistol might not be enough, you carry the extra magazine for the case of when your 10 round semi-auto pistol double feeds on round number 2.”

I also agree with his quote, “no one who has ever been in a gunfight, has asked to carry less rounds.”

I personally, would never carry any firearm, magazine or revolver capacity withstanding; and not have a way to reload it. Either because of a malfunction or because it went empty. But that’s just me.

I respect that point of view, but one could also say "no one has ever gotten into a car accident and wished they had been driving faster" or "no one has ever driven a car and wished it had less fuel economy/range" or any other number of similar hypotheticals - but we're not all in dorky econoboxes and driving at or below the speed limit at all times. You are right - if I was ever in a gunfight - i'd like to have an Apache helicopter above me, with an M1 tank to my left, and a platoon of Marines to my right. Clearly that's hyperbolic, but one has to weigh out fact/statistics against their preparedness and come up with a balance they feel comfortable with. I can tell you this right now, if I'm in a gun battle while taking my dogs around the block for 20 minutes, and I find myself in a fight for my life and have an empty revolver, then i'm at peace with whatever happens next. I don't foresee any situation where I'm getting a revolver reloaded and "back in the fight" in my sweatpants walking my dogs - that isn't as hyperbolic and unlikely as my Apache helo support example above.

Broken record time though - if you walk your dog around the block with a 10mm Glock 40 with 15 round magazines, more power to you, and I sure hope you're around when the bag guys wage war against my dogs and I

 

[nortac]

@joel, I never questioned your shooting ability or your choice of weapons. I'm not sure why you seem to infer that I might be a mall ninja, I don't carry excessive gear or multiple guns. I'm not looking to be anyone's hero; I'd much rather be the "grey man" that nobody notices. I am a little grey, given my age, and I can't run a fast mile anymore. But I'm not looking to prove anything to anyone, either online or in person. As for quoting Cooper, Ayoob or Farnam, I have actually trained with them and others, so I'm no gun rag ninja either. It's great that you can do a smokin' El Prez, it's lots of fun. You do you and enjoy your bubble.

 

[joel]

@joel, I never questioned your shooting ability or your choice of weapons. I'm not sure why you seem to infer that I might be a mall ninja, I don't carry excessive gear or multiple guns. I'm not looking to be anyone's hero; I'd much rather be the "grey man" that nobody notices. I am a little grey, given my age, and I can't run a fast mile anymore. But I'm not looking to prove anything to anyone, either online or in person. As for quoting Cooper, Ayoob or Farnam, I have actually trained with them and others, so I'm no gun rag ninja either. It's great that you can do a smokin' El Prez, it's lots of fun. You do you and enjoy your bubble.

Nothing was meant to be expressed or implied about you in any way. I feel with the extent of shooting/training I do, I’ve got a bit of mall ninja in me myself. There’s no shame in being over prepared - but on some of these forums (and in some shooting classes) I’ve run into folks who take it to such an extreme they probably have a 5.11 toilet seat.

 

[OkieStubble]

Well I already covered this with irrefutable fact, so now I feel warranted to engage in a gentlemanly debate. First - let me begin by saying everyone has to draw their own line in the sand about the level of risk they're willing to accept across dozens of areas every day. I know folks who haven't eaten a SINGLE processed food, meat of any kind, or had added sugar in 20 years, work our daily and have next to no body fat. They regularly brag about their non-existent cholesterol levels, they get quarterly blood panels and monitor their vitamin levels, etc. The probability they live more years than I, is very high... but I enjoy food and convenience too much to spend that much time, energy and discipline. That said - I see exactly why he's doing it, it's logical - but his line in the sand over the steps he can take to control risk in that area is a long ways from mine. I don't disparage his choice, or try to tell him how much in life he's missing out on - as focusing on controlling risk, makes him feel like he's in control of his lifespan and makes him feel good/comfortable. If someone wants to sleep with a Desert Eagle and 10 magazines strapped to themselves in their PJ's at night, with a Glock 40 in 10mm as a backup, and a Benelli M4 and a AR next to their bed at night - then rock and roll. I don't care what other people carry - as long as folks are following the law, and not putting others at harm/risk thinking because of their equipment or large amount of ammo they're toting, they can insert themselves into situations they have no business doing. So - with that long disclaimer out of the way, hopefully you'll know that the comments/points below are not meant to change your mind, belittle your point of view, or pass ANY judgement against you or your beliefs. Frankly, i'm all for well trained citizens packing oodles of ammo, wearing armor, and b-hole puckered at the ready to take on bad guys, as it means I can do a lot less, and if i'm lucky and find myself in a pinch, even if I'm armed - perhaps someone else with better equipment for 200 yard off hand pistol shots can take care of the problem for me.

Alright - no punches pulled, here it comes:

1. I live in a literal bubble. I waste too much time going into the specifics, but it's considered one of the safest towns in the country based on the extra funding we provide our depts - their absurd staffing levels and the cutting edge tech they deploy. It's literal big brother, and frankly i'm not happy about it (cameras at ever exit and intersection with face and license plate recognition). Long story short, if you're not from the area, and you start randomly driving around without a clear destination, or stopped somewhere too long and your plate is tied to an address not in that direct area, you're going to see an officer pulling them over, or talking to them (while they're parked) in 10 min or less. I've got lots and lots of ridiculous stories I could share, such as when someone stole an amazon package from my front porch (it was a $7 running hat) and they had THREE squad cars roar up my door in sub 5 minutes with lights and sirens blaring. These guys don't mess around. My risk in this immediate area - is very low, period.

2. The second anyone starts to quote Jeff Cooper, Massad Ayoob, some random general or famous soldier - my Mall Ninja alarm goes off. Most of these guys, especially Cooper and Ayoob made their living off stoking fear, and are no different than social media "influencers" - they're magazine/book "influencers" and seminar "influencers" and Ayoob is now also a social media influencer. These folks make a literal fortune stoking fear, and their sense of power, influence, worth and value is achieved by doubling down on that "what if". You can quote anyone all you'd like - but the hard facts are the hard facts. You're more likely to intentionally, or accidentally shoot yourself with your own gun, than another human in self defense. It's not just a LITTLE more likely, mind you - it's orders of magnitudes. If you want to really focus on mitigating threat and protecting yourself and your family, you wouldn't carry a gun - full stop. The guy who has an AD and shoots his pickle off, or blasts a hole in his butt cheek is the same guy who a day prior would tell you they're safety conscious, it would never happen to them, etc. Accidents happen, that's why they're called accidents - and while you can mitigate many/most - **** happens. The fact is, anyone who feels they won't be part of the majority (who kills oneself intentionally, or has an accidental discharge harming themselves or another, or has a family member get access to the gun and use it to harm another) and will more likely be part of the minority (who takes a 40 yard shot with a pistol at a bad guy in a mall and becomes a hero), is simultaneously insecure, and overconfident. Everyone has their own level of insecurity and overconfidence and there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, I wouldn't ever carry a gun, if I felt secure enough to think nothing would happen to me, and that my skills/abilities are good enough to stop threats, and never endanger myself or others, even by accident. Despite knowing the facts and hard data behind it - I still choose to carry... but I acknowledge, accept and agree i'm more likely to hurt myself or an innocent, than have to use the gun in self defense.... but I feel the chance of me hurting myself or an innocent is so low, it's worth risking my health and freedom over. I'm also a gun guy, and a lover of finely made tools, so being able to add another tool to my belt is exciting. I also train and shoot more than anyone I know (which admittedly, isn't a huge sample set) who has a CCW permit, including active police officers. All of that said - i'm not a cop, and I'm not going into harms way - and I am a believer in math and science, and I acknowledge and accept the facts. You can talk about the .000001% chance of occurring situations until the end of time, and they're pretty fun to squabble over - but it's b/s shop talk. You could be hit and killed by a small bubblegum sized meteor falling from the sky, drop dead from a brain aneurism - the list goes on and on.... but the simple fact remains (and is often ignored) the risk of most citizens having a life or death encounter requiring the legal deployment of lethal force from a firearm is next to 0.

3. As I said in a prior post, there are SO many other things we have far more direct control over, that we absolutely know can/will kill us, or we will have to experience - and we take no action. I was chinwagging with a morbidly obese chain smoker in my CCW class, and could help but judge him in my head. He was going on and on about how he was going to keep his carry gun next to the shower, in case he was attacked while showering, and that he'd refuse to step into another post office again, since he couldn't go in heeled, etc. As I get older, I try VERY hard not to judge others, and honestly - if that's what it takes to make HIM feel safe and happy, then as long as he doesn't hurt anyone, more power to him... but he will absolutely die from his smoking and eating habit, he already had diabetes from it (and he was in his 30's), it's literally killing him as we're talking and he's sucking on his cigarettes, and all he can focus on is mall ninja situations. In 2 of my 3 motorcycles I carry first aid kits, a portable jump starter, a tire repair kit AND an electronic tire inflator with slime system, a siphon (in case I run out of fuel), a 1 liter bottle of backup fuel, a backup GPS, an emergency packable down jacket, sunglasses, a hat, sunscreen, multiple water bottles and electrolyte powder. I also wear an airbag jacket 100% of the time I ride, and one of my motorcycles even has an airbag system built in. I have had to use EVERY one of those backup items over the years, and some have really saved my bacon - and I tend to take a lot of risks, so I like to be prepared. I'm like that across the board with everything I do - whether it's Scuba Diving, racing cars/motorcycles, flying planes, etc, hence my desire for a CCW permit. All of that said - as someone who prepares for the worst in almost every aspect of life, I have found a reasonable balance - or line in the sand I draw that works for me, and makes me feel secure and confident, but in moist sports, hobbies, or day to day activities in life, you can quickly take them to the extreme, and the internet is VERY good at 1. Giving extremists a large microphone 2. Connecting like minded individuals, who further bolster and feed their extreme views. This is a good time to quickly pause and re-iterate, I am not casting judgement, or making accusations, or labeling you or anyone else as an "extremist" as everyone has their own gauge - one persons extreme is another's norm - and again, as long as they're not hurting others, doing things that put others at risk, or infringing on another's rights/freedoms - I could care less what anyone does on their own time, and even more so if I don't have to see it or hear about it. That said - any "average joe" citizen (IE: not a cop, soldier, security guard, judge, individual being actively stalked/threatened, etc) that lives in a reasonably safe area that feels they need to walk around strapped and ready, is at least on the spectrum of extremism.

4. Not saying this is you - but the folks i've met face to face who are truly expecting and preparing for the worst case self defense situation, do not have the skill/training to face it, only the gear. No judgement, it's cool knowing you're packing the same gun the Seals use, or that you have enough ammo on hand to take on a militia - but i've never met anyone toting that gear that has been in sufficient physical condition to run a mile in under 8 minutes, quickly jump up off the ground, dodge punches, versed in basic hand to hand combat, weapon retention, etc. Now, the folks I've met and shot with for 1-3 days who ARE in exceptional physical condition, and are trained in hand to hand combat, and are former operators, are generally carrying something rock solid, but basic. A G43, a G19, a Shield 9mm, etc - and one backup mag. If you've met 900 folks that are Delta Force AND Navy Seals at the same time, and they CCW a bazooka - then I have no reason to doubt you, and if that's why you feel you need to pack so much heat - rock and roll brother. My experience has been anything but.

5. Again - I point to my target I shared earlier. My draw and two mag dumps are performed in sub 7 seconds (FAR better than the 10 10 10 drill) and you can see the results and the distance with a G43, that is not an easy gun to shoot fast and accurately - it is very unforgiving. I know Jerry Miculek can do 27 rounds in 3.7 seconds, and do so more accurately, and I know I'm not world class shooter, but again - look at my target. I cannot be convinced that my performance isn't better than 99% of shooters worldwide. There are a LOT of folks better than me in that 1%, i'm not a fool, but I have no doubt in my mind I can accurately engage moving threats at 50 yards with that gun, and I can go from concealed to 17 holes in a baseball sized area in less than 7 seconds. I can do the El Presidente Drill in 7 seconds (from concealed NOT OWB), but have gotten into the high 6's more than once. Pro's are doing it in 4-5 seconds, with larger guns. Bottom line - I am not at all concerned about the gear i've chosen and my ability to get the job done if called upon. I could have bought a nice Mercedes for the amount of $ I have spent over the years in range fees, ammo (I used to shoot 1-2K rounds a week for several years), and training courses. I feel confident I could neutralize 3-4 targets inside of ~20 yards in less than 7 seconds if there's an open line of sight. That is a ridiculously unlikely scenario, and frankly already well beyond the realm of what I think is a corner case situation. I also think folks with more ammo are still not going to end up on top if they're taking on more armed assailants than that... unless they're John Rambo, have body armor on, and armed with an assault rifle.

6. Citizens who feel they need to be prepared for the worst 100% of the time, and are ALWAYS packing heat, never seem to be wearing body armor. This makes no sense to me - a revolver and body armor is a better combo than a Glock 17 with 31 round mags in your underoos. Here's the thing though - body armor isn't cool, it's hard to geek out on, it's not "manly", you can't brag to your friends about it, etc - so the focus remains on gun talk, ammo talk, and always being armed. If you're planing for that Jeff Cooper or Ayoob situation where you're taking on the entire Chinese armor, why aren't you wearing body armor 100% of the time you're not in the shower or swimming? My point is, it's fun to talk about guns, ammo, calibers, stopping power etc, but the REAL tactics and tools to best prepare and protect yourself are boring. It's lots (and I mean LOTS) of shooting, training and wearing body armor.

7. With all of that said, I cannot and will not ever be convinced that it makes any logical sense in my neighborhood, to change into clothes necessary, or spend ~3-5 minutes "gearing up" to carry a semi-auto with a backup mag to walk my dogs around the block for 20 min. I also cannot be convinced, that the risk of a life and death struggle I can't retreat or hide from is sufficient in the 10-15 minute round trip to go to the supermarket to grab some bananas and a box of arugula, that I need to be packing any gun, let alone a semi with a backup mag. That said - If I had a 10oz gun in a pocket holster that was effectively zero effort to carry, and I could go from unarmed to armed in the 3 seconds it would take to jam the holster in my pocket, i'd absolutely carry it - mainly because I think those small, ultra light guns are really neat - not because I am expecting to need it in a life or death struggle. I might - but if I did, it would be a situation I normally wouldn't have a gun at all, and the cylinder full of bad guy medicine sure beats fists. Not to be a broken record, but this is again why I'd call this "the gun to carry, when i'm not carrying a gun."

At the end of the day, everyone manages their own respective levels of what they consider acceptable risk. I feel I plan for the unexpected across the board in everything I do - and I do very diligent research and I put in the requisite shoe leather. In every area, they'll be a group of folks who feel that's not nearly enough, but such is life - I drag my knees and elbows around laguna seca on a 200+ HP motorcycle that weighs just over 400 lbs, but i'll look at someone significantly overweight and think that's not a risk i'd like to take. It's all perspective, but you can't live a happy and healthy life if you're planning for the extreme situation in every aspect of life. Who wants to be a bubble boy/girl?

WoW! Feel better? Sounds like you needed to get some stuff off of your chest? well, this is your forum and we like being here, so our reading eyes are your sounding board...


Am I the only one thinking after reading this, "but he asked us for what we thought?"

I can't help thinking; maybe it is us who should be asking you for advice? Cuz, you sound quite knowledgeable in this post and sure was chock full of advice. Whether we asked for it or not.

 

[OkieStubble]

I respect that point of view, but one could also say "no one has ever gotten into a car accident and wished they had been driving faster" or "no one has ever driven a car and wished it had less fuel economy/range" or any other number of similar hypotheticals

Respectfully, I don't agree, that your above analogies compare at all with the analogy that I quoted from @nortac.

- but we're not all in dorky econoboxes and driving at or below the speed limit at all times. You are right - if I was ever in a gunfight - i'd like to have an Apache helicopter above me, with an M1 tank to my left, and a platoon of Marines to my right. Clearly that's hyperbolic,

Agreed good sir.

but one has to weigh out fact/statistics against their preparedness and come up with a balance they feel comfortable with. I can tell you this right now, if I'm in a gun battle while taking my dogs around the block for 20 minutes, and I find myself in a fight for my life and have an empty revolver, then i'm at peace with whatever happens next. I don't foresee any situation where I'm getting a revolver reloaded and "back in the fight" in my sweatpants walking my dogs - that isn't as hyperbolic and unlikely as my Apache helo support example above.

Broken record time though - if you walk your dog around the block with a 10mm Glock 40 with 15 round magazines, more power to you, and I sure hope you're around when the bag guys wage war against my dogs and I

I can agree with all of this. What makes you think I wouldn't? Pretty sure, you haven't seen anyone here suggest the 'narrative' that you should walk your dog around the block of your gated community with ammo bandolier's strapped across your chest or pack a Glock 10mm hand cannon?

However, since we are throwing in simple scenario's to make our points, how about this one... I'm walking my dog around the remote RV Park in the Colorado Rockies? Would it be wise advice to carry my Glock 20 in 10mm for brown or black bear, or is that being a Mall Ninja also? These specific scenario's, that you and I are speaking of, wasn't mentioned or expressed by anyone in this thread? I'm positive, it's just been all, basic, gentlemanly, plain speak and generalizations?

 

[OkieStubble]

@joel, I never questioned your shooting ability or your choice of weapons. I'm not sure why you seem to infer that I might be a mall ninja, I don't carry excessive gear or multiple guns. I'm not looking to be anyone's hero; I'd much rather be the "grey man" that nobody notices. I am a little grey, given my age, and I can't run a fast mile anymore. But I'm not looking to prove anything to anyone, either online or in person. As for quoting Cooper, Ayoob or Farnam, I have actually trained with them and others, so I'm no gun rag ninja either. It's great that you can do a smokin' El Prez, it's lots of fun. You do you and enjoy your bubble.

Yeah, With all due respect to @joel, and his experience, opinions and who he is to B&B, hell, he is B&B! I started getting steamed after his 10th 'mall ninja' reference?

If that's his perception, it's not a correct one, respectfully saying. Everyone in this sub forum, who spends time here everyday like we do, knows this. We are gun enthusiast's and being adequately armed is a wide and varying, individual decision of what's enough for each individual. YMMV works for guns also, not just razors.

 

[OkieStubble]

Nothing was meant to be expressed or implied about you in any way.

This is refreshing to know, but you could have fooled us?

I feel with the extent of shooting/training I do, I’ve got a bit of mall ninja in me myself.

Why does anyone insist, labeling themselves or anyone else who likes and enjoys tactics with their hobby of firearms, a mall ninja? No disrespect meant sir, but you got the word mall ninja tattooed to your brain?

There’s no shame in being over prepared - but on some of these forums (and in some shooting classes) I’ve run into folks who take it to such an extreme they probably have a 5.11 toilet seat.

Sorry for your bad experiences from your past... But if you weren't the founder of B&B and could have me banned in the blink of an eye, I would tell you this thread of yours asking for our advice and then the unload of 16 mall ninja's, kinda felt like a set up so you could unload on us what you think? Cuz, you certainly don't need or want the advice of a bunch of mall ninja's? But I won't say that and will keep it to myself, since you are the founding father of this great forum we enjoy and appreciate so very much.

 

[joel]

This is refreshing to know, but you could have fooled us?



Why does anyone insist, labeling themselves or anyone else who likes and enjoys tactics with their hobby of firearms, a mall ninja? No disrespect meant sir, but you got the word mall ninja tattooed to your brain?




Sorry for your bad experiences from your past... But if you weren't the founder of B&B and could have me banned in the blink of an eye, I would tell you this thread of yours asking for our advice and then the unload of 16 mall ninja's, kinda felt like a set up so you could unload on us what you think? Cuz, you certainly don't need or want the advice of a bunch of mall ninja's? But I won't say that and will keep it to myself, since you are the founding father of this great forum we enjoy and appreciate so very much.

You sir are completely correct and I apologize.

It‘s no secret I don’t post here often, and I came in seeking advice/opinions and things got sideways. I’m a little rusty in forum etiquette and have bulled the proverbial china shop - so again my apologies to all, and I mean it.

I’ve been doing a lot of reading to try to figure out my equipment puzzle, and I’ve found it terribly frustrating to get quality info, as most of the threads (not on B&B) immediately take a turn to recommendations that don‘t address the OP’s issues or bring up unrelated issues and go down a rathole so the question remains largely unanswered. I tried to overshare to avoid this and it didn’t go as planned.

I do care what you guys think, or I wouldn’t have asked - but I care about which of the four “pocket pistols” I listed you folks would choose to meet my stated use case and why. I’m not super interested in hearing that it should be a 10 round S&W M&P 45, which is considerably larger than my primary carry… or how much ammo I should carry on the compromised gun, or that my use case is too compromising, or imply I shouldn’t feel safe enough in my neighborhood to not carry a gun for a 20 minute walk around the block and that I could be part of that fraction of a percent that has the issue, etc. I respect your opinion, but it doesn’t help me, or someone who might stumble on this thread from a Google search in the future who might have the same question.

I did however get some good advice from you all and the discussion (read:my ranting) helped me work out what I was going to do and why, so it did help me, but perhaps at ya’ll’s expense. Again, apologies. Anyone in this thread - if we are in one another’s neck of the woods, let’s connect F2F and lunch is on me. @Hopalong - you’re closest, if you’re up for it, when the weather clears up in a week or two, I’m always looking for an excuse to jump on a motorcycle and ride down the coastline.

Pardon the interruption - let’s get back to the fun, and I’ll quit being a brat and behave.

 

[Filudo]

1) sell the 380.
2) you mention shooting a lot of Glocks, maybe you have one that holds 10rds......just 2 more rounds can be a LOT extra.

 

[dojpros]

Re the El Prez- What platform can you break 7 seconds, concealed, all As ?

What load and what gear?

Same question re 17 rounds in a fist sized group at 7 yards/7 seconds?

You can do Both of those on demand- today- cold ?

 

[nortac]

 

[simon1]

 

[joel]

Re the El Prez- What platform can you break 7 seconds, concealed, all As ?

What load and what gear?

Same question re 17 rounds in a fist sized group at 7 yards/7 seconds?

You can do Both of those on demand- today- cold ?

G43 AIWB in a Vedder W/A sidecar mag carrier, using WWB for both.

I can’t do the El Prez cold in under 7 on demand - that was my best after two days of training. I’m sure my cold time is somewhere around 10, but I’d hope a tickle under.

17 rounds in a fist in sub 7 I last did Feb 23. Every range trip (generally 3-5X a month) I drill at least a half a dozen times.

 

[nortac]

Par time for the El Prez is generally around 10 sec. Doing par with a G 43 is pretty good in itself! It's literally been over a decade, maybe two, since I tried an El Prez. When I was shooting IPSC/IDPA regularly I could make par with a full-sized gun fairly regularly. I'm sure I did better than par on a few occasions, but nowhere near what the pros can do. If you want some real fun, do it with a revolver! Good for lots of laughs and good-natured ribbing among your fellow competitors. A lot of otherwise good shooters will flub the revolver reload and ruin their times, even if their hits are right on the money!