From now on, let's write all of our posts completely in French!
Castle Forbes Neroli Eau de Parfum
- Thread starter klstclair
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Same here. I deliberately avoid it because it does seem to be a hip, wannabe in-the-know term a poseur would use. (Er...sorry, Navaixero.
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I've smelled the CF Neroli. It's nice, but not my cup of tea. Too bitter. However, to go off on a bit of a tangent I find C&S's Neroli to be flat-out amazing. I've been using it nearly every day this summer. For a non-food smell it sure does make my mouth water. 
Something about the combination of ylang ylang w/the neroli really mellows out neroli's "medicinal" character. It's a subtle frag, really stays close to the skin. I don't notice much "sillage" (unless I place the bottle by the window). 
Something about the combination of ylang ylang w/the neroli really mellows out neroli's "medicinal" character. It's a subtle frag, really stays close to the skin. I don't notice much "sillage" (unless I place the bottle by the window). 
I never figured out exactly how one determines "sillage". The only way I can imagine is direct feedback. Longevity, sillage, "that guy reeks".....where are the lines?
I've kind of wondered about that myself. I mean, it's fine for a woman to leave a trail of scent behind her -- one would expect that. But a guy?
I much prefer frags that don't broadcast their presence & stay close to my skin.If sillage and longevity are the same thing, then sillage is a useless term. Rather, I think sillage is as Tom described it earlier - the "trailing" effect of a fragrance (like the wake of a boat), how far behind a person a fragrance trails. If a person means longevity, he should say longevity. If he means longevity and instead chooses to say sillage, he's either ignorant or a poseur, and is most likely both.
If sillage is truly leaving a wake of fragrance behind you, about the only way you could gauge the sillage of a fragrance is to have somebody follow you around and tell you how far behind you he or she can still smell it. The pragmatic ramifications of such a technique are absurd when you consider just how many reports of sillage are on a place like Basenotes, leading me to think most of those reports are baseless - or are simply reports of longevity said in a way the reviewer thinks sounds cool. Which is yet another reason the term annoys me.
,well ok ,if sillage is very femenine for you Sirs,call longevity Reading basenotes long enough will make your brain melt. I once read a reviewer describe Aqua Velva as smelling like "the enchanted leather belt of Odin." He was serious, too.
Funny you should say that. I was just perusing AV reviews on Basenotes last night and saw a great one. I was thinking of posting it on B&B for everyone's enlightenment, so here you go. He doesn't mention anything about Odin's belt, but he's in the ballpark.
"It's refreshing and unpretentious. It's a train station in the morning. It's a pilot going through a check list. It's a baker or construction worker who are too busy being the salt of the earth to have time for bizaar hobbies. It is real. It smells "monday" in a way that makes Rive Gauche look like a drag queen on stilettos. It can walk up to any frag and say 'and how are you contributing exactly ?' I just bought a bottle again and keep splashing it on, totally ignoring everything else on my shelf."
Oh yeah, that's a signature line right there.
My brain just melted.
Same here. I deliberately avoid it because it does seem to be a hip, wannabe in-the-know term a poseur would use. (Er...sorry, Navaixero.
I think "sillage" seems like a good word to me and I cannot think a of an English equivalent to it or what, at least, I think it means, unless it would simply be the English word "wake," which itself seems perfectly acceptable and descriptive of what is being talked about. I really like the water metaphor for what is being described!
Seems to me it is misused frequently to mean something like longetivity or "strength," although I suppose that raises a question of whether there are truly "strong" scents that "stay close to the skin." As I think about that, I kind of have my doubts, so maybe in the end all it really does mean is "strong."
Do folks hate it more or less because it is supposedly--I just found this out--pronounced "see-YAAJE"? Seems more pedantic to me with that pronounciation, although could anything be more pedantic than the word "pedantic"?
From me, FWIW, someone who is often a poseur and most of the time does not even know it, or worse, is just vaguely aware enough to be uneasy!
At the risk of sounding pedantic, it would be pronounced "seel-AHJE," because Ls are pronounced in French; they are not in Spanish*. That isn't why I dislike it. In fact, if most people pronounced it that way I would like it better. The English pronunciation sounds like a combination of "silly" and "sewage," which isn't what I like to think of when I'm contemplating fragrance. No, I dislike it mainly because it just seems so "now," a term that now must be used by all these fragrance know-it-alls who write brain-meltingly pretentious reviews like the one I posted above.
Having said that, you make a very good point. The trailing effect of a fragrance is a genuine property that deserves its own term, and sillage is as good a term as any. If people would use the term properly and not over-use it, or use it just to sound like they know what they are talking about, I wouldn't have a problem with it. You also bring up another good point, though: is true sillage a good thing? It seems to me the best, most sophisitcated fragrances would have low sillage, and people with discerning noses would apply them in a judicious way so as to further minimize sillage.
*Edit: I should clarify, double Ls are not pronounced in Spanish. Single Ls are.
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If any member are interesed i have a bottle of CF Neroli for sell a very very good price.
I can said about this cologne that is in my skin hours and hours is this "sillage"
,and of course better neroli than Castile or C&S,Forbes is PARFUM not EDT.
I can said about this cologne that is in my skin hours and hours is this "sillage"
,and of course better neroli than Castile or C&S,Forbes is PARFUM not EDT.I think quite a few folks pick up the term "sillage" and start throwing it around to be hip or in the know. Horatio hit the nail on the head describing the difference between sillage and longevity...that's exactly how I see it.
I would think sillage could be determined by things like how many compliments one gets for smelling good, etc.
I've mentioned my dislike of a "drenched in Polo" individual. I'm sure we've all been exposed to the guy who absolutely reeks. People tend to smile at each other, say they're "fine", etc. to one's face, while they may well be gossiping behind that same person's back. That kind of situation is exactly what I don't want.
I think my ideal is to wear a scent that may be ephemeral, something understated that says "you". I used to wear White Musk every day and was once visiting my sister. I'd been playing with her cat and later my sister remarked that the cat, "smelled like Tom". I liked that. For me, I hope to always err on the side of under-application. For me, if I'm smelling a scent hours after putting it on, I've likely used way too much.
I would think sillage could be determined by things like how many compliments one gets for smelling good, etc.
I've mentioned my dislike of a "drenched in Polo" individual. I'm sure we've all been exposed to the guy who absolutely reeks. People tend to smile at each other, say they're "fine", etc. to one's face, while they may well be gossiping behind that same person's back. That kind of situation is exactly what I don't want.
I think my ideal is to wear a scent that may be ephemeral, something understated that says "you". I used to wear White Musk every day and was once visiting my sister. I'd been playing with her cat and later my sister remarked that the cat, "smelled like Tom". I liked that. For me, I hope to always err on the side of under-application. For me, if I'm smelling a scent hours after putting it on, I've likely used way too much.
Exactly. For every comment you might get on a scent, for better or worse, how many are you not getting? I had sprayed on some Green Irish Tweed, which I almost never wear and so am not adept at how much I should put on, and an hour or so after went to Chipotle (kind of like a Mexican Subway, for those who don't know). The gal behind the counter - that is to say, behind the glass and all the aromatic food that separated me from her - asked me if I was wearing cologne. I said, "Yes, and obviously too much of it." She said, "No, you smell good." Well, maybe I did, and maybe I didn't. But I was still wearing too much of it if she could smell at that distance. And it made me wonder how many other people smelled me that day who didn't like it, and obviously didn't say anything.
That reminds of this time when a woman I was dating was nuzzling me and said, "You smell good." I said, "But I'm not wearing any cologne." She said, "I know, you still smell good." Now that's smelling like me. That informs my grooming philosophy these days. I try to smell good without smelling, if that makes any sense, focusing more on good grooming and hygiene, and less on scenting myself up. Rather the opposite of an Aqua Velva thread I just read where someone said AV is so lightly scented that it will not interfere with any EDTs he wears. In other words, he wears Aqua Velva and cologne together. Now I bet that guy has got some sillage going on. Maybe it's just me, but 99% of the time, if I can smell a fragrance on someone in passing, I don't like what I smell*. So, I figure 99% of the time most people don't want to smell me.
*More accurately, it's 99% of the time I smell it on another guy. If it's a woman, I'd say it's more like 50%, or maybe less. So maybe there's a gender bias there.
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<At the risk of sounding pedantic, it would be pronounced "seel-AHJE," because Ls are pronounced in French; they are not in Spanish*. >
Believe me, all I know (or do not know!) about French pronunciation I got from the Internet! My French is virtually non-existent. (My Spanish sucks, too, but I did take enough miserable school years of it to think that double "l"s in Spanish are pronounced with a "y" sound. No dis to ya, but what little Spanish I know was hard won, some I am going to trot it out!)
<Rather the opposite of an Aqua Velva thread I just read where someone said AV is so lightly scented that it will not interfere with any EDTs he wears.>
Hey, that could have been me! I do not know if it something I actually wrote this time, but it is something I have frequently said about bay rum in response to folks that write in asking whether there is any bay rum that has any persistence. I generally say that I use Superior 70 BR or Ogallala BR AS in part because they have no persistence whatsoever. Any BR with any persistence to speak of, to me smells not like bay laurel, but like cinammon and cloves. Maybe I am underestimating the persistence of AV, but I do not think it has much on me and I cannot imagine it having all that much persistence used solely on the face in after shave quantities anyway. Besides I usually do a hot towel after AS and before a shave balm/moisterizer, and what I use for the latter is pretty darn neutral in aroma. Anyway, my long-winded point being, I like the smell of AV, and it is really nice as an AS including the smell, but I would rather smell like, say, Pen's Douro during the day, even if AV had any staying power, which I truly do not think it does, at least on me, at least the way I use it!
I guess I should ask around about whether I have lots of sillage! it is certainly not my goal to.
Now, GIT, there's a scent that I would say has lots of sillage but no persistence. I really like the way it smells. And I bet it does tend to fill up a room, but a couple of hours later and it is virtually gone on me. Four hours later and it is truly gone completely. I suppose that is the danger and trouble with something like GIT. There is a tendency to put more on, hoping one will get some persistence, but that does not really work, and what one really gets is a couple of hours of so filling up every space one is in with that scent.
By the way, we are probably all talking about a whole bunch of different things here. I do not mind that an edt fills up the room when I first put it on for say 10 to 15 minutes. I do not mind my bathroom smelling good for a few minutes. I guess some would say those are the top notes or accords. I just do not want the middle and base notes/accords filling up everywhere I go.
Re smelling good by smelling like yourself. I am currently reading Chandler Burr's "The Perfect Scent: A Year Inside the Perfume Industry in Paris & New York." It is amazing how often trying to come up with a scent that smells like a human being--whether a sparkling clean human being or a somewhat funky one--comes up! Fascinating stuff. Although I find myself agreeing with someone like Luca Turin's fragrance reviews way more often that I do Chandler Burr's reviews. CB seems just a little too "precious" in his likes and dislikes for my tastes. Although he seems to excoriate most currently popular men's scents, so you and he may agree on the 99% of what you smell on men not being pleasant. For that matter, I do not think I smell a lot of what is talked about on B&B out there day to day.
Anyway, Horatio, always fun to exchange thoughts with you!
Edit: Oh, and I meant to say, just because it is too good a line not to use, "It smells "Monday" in a way that makes Rive Gauche look like a drag queen on stilettos."
Believe me, all I know (or do not know!) about French pronunciation I got from the Internet! My French is virtually non-existent. (My Spanish sucks, too, but I did take enough miserable school years of it to think that double "l"s in Spanish are pronounced with a "y" sound. No dis to ya, but what little Spanish I know was hard won, some I am going to trot it out!)
<Rather the opposite of an Aqua Velva thread I just read where someone said AV is so lightly scented that it will not interfere with any EDTs he wears.>
Hey, that could have been me! I do not know if it something I actually wrote this time, but it is something I have frequently said about bay rum in response to folks that write in asking whether there is any bay rum that has any persistence. I generally say that I use Superior 70 BR or Ogallala BR AS in part because they have no persistence whatsoever. Any BR with any persistence to speak of, to me smells not like bay laurel, but like cinammon and cloves. Maybe I am underestimating the persistence of AV, but I do not think it has much on me and I cannot imagine it having all that much persistence used solely on the face in after shave quantities anyway. Besides I usually do a hot towel after AS and before a shave balm/moisterizer, and what I use for the latter is pretty darn neutral in aroma. Anyway, my long-winded point being, I like the smell of AV, and it is really nice as an AS including the smell, but I would rather smell like, say, Pen's Douro during the day, even if AV had any staying power, which I truly do not think it does, at least on me, at least the way I use it!
I guess I should ask around about whether I have lots of sillage! it is certainly not my goal to.
Now, GIT, there's a scent that I would say has lots of sillage but no persistence. I really like the way it smells. And I bet it does tend to fill up a room, but a couple of hours later and it is virtually gone on me. Four hours later and it is truly gone completely. I suppose that is the danger and trouble with something like GIT. There is a tendency to put more on, hoping one will get some persistence, but that does not really work, and what one really gets is a couple of hours of so filling up every space one is in with that scent.
By the way, we are probably all talking about a whole bunch of different things here. I do not mind that an edt fills up the room when I first put it on for say 10 to 15 minutes. I do not mind my bathroom smelling good for a few minutes. I guess some would say those are the top notes or accords. I just do not want the middle and base notes/accords filling up everywhere I go.
Re smelling good by smelling like yourself. I am currently reading Chandler Burr's "The Perfect Scent: A Year Inside the Perfume Industry in Paris & New York." It is amazing how often trying to come up with a scent that smells like a human being--whether a sparkling clean human being or a somewhat funky one--comes up! Fascinating stuff. Although I find myself agreeing with someone like Luca Turin's fragrance reviews way more often that I do Chandler Burr's reviews. CB seems just a little too "precious" in his likes and dislikes for my tastes. Although he seems to excoriate most currently popular men's scents, so you and he may agree on the 99% of what you smell on men not being pleasant. For that matter, I do not think I smell a lot of what is talked about on B&B out there day to day.
Anyway, Horatio, always fun to exchange thoughts with you!
Edit: Oh, and I meant to say, just because it is too good a line not to use, "It smells "Monday" in a way that makes Rive Gauche look like a drag queen on stilettos."
It is my opinion that a lot of gents underestimate the staying power of certain scents. Why this should be, I don't know, but if I had to guess, I would say it is because they are judging the persistence of a scent based on their ability to smell it when they are wearing it. Quite often, when a person's nose is exposed to a scent continuously, his brain starts to tune that scent out to the point where it is as though he cannot smell it any more. It's not because the scent isn't there any more; it's that his brain isn't registering it. That's why I typically do a back-of-the-hand test with any fragrance I'm considering wearing, to see how long it sticks around. I put some fragrance on the back of my hand, and smell it at various intervals to see how long it sticks around, evolves, etc. That way, my nose is only being exposed to it at the times I am intentionally smelling it, not all the time. Note: it's important to do this test only with one fragrance at a time, and in an environment that isn't exposing you to a lot of other scents. I can't tell you how many times I did what I thought was a careful test of a scent in a fragrance store, only to get the fragrance home after I bought it and discover it smelled completely different than I thought it did. My olfactory senses had been so bombarded by everything in the store, I had not registered the true nature of the scent I was trying to smell.
I did the back-of-the hand test just a couple nights ago with some Aqua Velva I just bought. (I'm still working up to actually wearing it.) Several hours before I went to sleep, I put a good-sized dab on my hand. When I woke up in the morning, twelve hours after I put on the AV, it was still there. It wasn't very strong, but it was definitely there. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that it will have that sort of staying power on everybody, but when I think of someone saying he can wear AV as a lightly scented aftershave and then wear a different EDT alongside it, it almost makes me cringe. I cannot help but think that person hasn't really investigated the nature of the scents he's putting on, and is quite possibly over-scenting himself.
I like your description of how the double-L sounds in Spanish better than how I said it; I think it is more of a 'Y' sound, rather than going unpronounced. Again, that doesn't apply to French in any instance I can think of - not in "sillage," at least.
Thanks for the engaging conversation.
I did the back-of-the hand test just a couple nights ago with some Aqua Velva I just bought. (I'm still working up to actually wearing it.) Several hours before I went to sleep, I put a good-sized dab on my hand. When I woke up in the morning, twelve hours after I put on the AV, it was still there. It wasn't very strong, but it was definitely there. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that it will have that sort of staying power on everybody, but when I think of someone saying he can wear AV as a lightly scented aftershave and then wear a different EDT alongside it, it almost makes me cringe. I cannot help but think that person hasn't really investigated the nature of the scents he's putting on, and is quite possibly over-scenting himself.
I like your description of how the double-L sounds in Spanish better than how I said it; I think it is more of a 'Y' sound, rather than going unpronounced. Again, that doesn't apply to French in any instance I can think of - not in "sillage," at least.
Thanks for the engaging conversation.
<when I think of someone saying he can wear AV as a lightly scented aftershave and then wear a different EDT alongside it, it almost makes me cringe>
I hate to admit it, but I guess I will have to check this out. I do not want to over do it. I will get my wife to help me! Again, I guess it is true that I am usually using a hot towel on my face after whatever AS I use, so that may make a difference.
Partly what it seems I can go by is usually put edts on my chest, which is covered by a tee shirt and regular business shirt anyway, which may dampen down the sillage, too. But if I rub my skin, some stuff comes back, others do not. Or at least I can smell it again, where I could not previously because I had gotten acclimated to it or it had faded pretty much completely away.
I am wearing C&S 88 today. It has persistence. (Very interesting stuff. I am both drawn to it and repelled by it.) Knize Ten really has persistence, but that is one unusual edt. Halson Z-14, Ararms, and Issy have good persistence--maybe too good. The Pens really seem to fade into the background, but if I rub my skin, they are definitely still there. The Creed's I have tried seem to fade out completely. Hoyt's, too.
But you are correct, I sure do not want to be in the situation of where I have just acclimated to a scent and cannot smell it anymore, whereas I am driving other folks of the room!
I hate to admit it, but I guess I will have to check this out. I do not want to over do it. I will get my wife to help me! Again, I guess it is true that I am usually using a hot towel on my face after whatever AS I use, so that may make a difference.
Partly what it seems I can go by is usually put edts on my chest, which is covered by a tee shirt and regular business shirt anyway, which may dampen down the sillage, too. But if I rub my skin, some stuff comes back, others do not. Or at least I can smell it again, where I could not previously because I had gotten acclimated to it or it had faded pretty much completely away.
I am wearing C&S 88 today. It has persistence. (Very interesting stuff. I am both drawn to it and repelled by it.) Knize Ten really has persistence, but that is one unusual edt. Halson Z-14, Ararms, and Issy have good persistence--maybe too good. The Pens really seem to fade into the background, but if I rub my skin, they are definitely still there. The Creed's I have tried seem to fade out completely. Hoyt's, too.
But you are correct, I sure do not want to be in the situation of where I have just acclimated to a scent and cannot smell it anymore, whereas I am driving other folks of the room!
