I wouldn't really get hung up carbon vs stainless. There are many many blends of alloys to create all kinds of steels. All for a different purpose. The carbon blades are more prone to rusting but both stainless and carbon blades can be coated to prevent rust and improve shave quality.
Carbon steel blades anyone?
- Thread starter Roterodamum
- Start date
I wouldn't really get hung up carbon vs stainless. There are many many blends of alloys to create all kinds of steels. All for a different purpose. The carbon blades are more prone to rusting but both stainless and carbon blades can be coated to prevent rust and improve shave quality.
All steel contains carbon, its what makes iron into steel. Stainless is a alloy of steel but i don't remember with what. Gillette had the first patent to make stainless steel razor blades but sat on it because they didn't think men would prefer the longer life of stainless vs. the fact that carbons are sharper. They underestimated the convenience factor, men weren't doing the post shave care for carbons to get them to last as long as possible so while in the lab carbons could last 5, 7 shaves or more in reality men tossed them after 1 or 2 shaves screwing over Gillette's calculations.
To continue, when Gillette's patent on the blades they sat on ran out, Wilkinson, who really didn't want to get in the razor blade market more than they were, started giving away a free stainless blade with their gardening tools which is the market they wanted to expand in. The blades were a hit and Wilkinson reluctantly was in that market significantly cutting into Gillette's share and the stainless era began. 1962.
Early "stainless" steels were not as corrosion resistant *or* as good as cutlery steel as modern alloys, so early on all the bad things you hear about stainless steel were likely true and I'd be very surprised if they gave anywhere near as good a shave as carbon steel until some time in the 1960s or so.
That said, there are many high-alloy stainless steels that can take and hold an edge as well as carbon steel these days, they can usually be hardened as effectively too, though most are more brittle at high hardness than simple carbon steel alloys.
My hunch is that with modern alloys, the edge finish and coatings used have more to do with the performance of a *fresh* blade than being stainless or not. How they respond to re-sharpening or stropping is another story altogether... though AEB-L (a steel specifically created for razor blades, according to metalurgical lore) is an easy to sharpen steel that responds well to stropping, at least in conventional knife blades.
As far as my carbon steel blade experience, I've tried a few vintage carbon steel DE blades that were terrible, likely due to corrosion of the edge (I have yet to try a *great* vintage stainless blade either, aside from Personna 74*s).
OTOH, Treet Dura Sharps are one of my favorite DE blades, very smooth and sharper than they feel on the face, the Silver and "Black Beauty" un-coated Treets are not quite as smooth (though close) and instead of getting two to three great shaves like I do with the DS, they both give one decent shave and one so-so shave before becoming a rusty, face shredding mess.
Since I'm retired, I have the time to get wrapped up into an acquisition disorder but not the funds for a brush one which is were I was heading. I redirected it into a vintage blade one, patiently picked up hundreds of pristine ones at prices equal to modern day, on a per shave basis, and tracked down about one near new, stored in a vacuum container, perfect carbon for every 50 or so stainless. They all give substantially better shaves than new choices and in the case of the stainless, for significantly more times. Its not a road I'd recommend anyone else other than another retiree go down but ,for me, it was well worth it.
Straight razors both old and new are primarily made from high high carbon steel. Stainless steel is also available but is less popular. It is generally accepted that high carbon blades are harder, can take a finer edge and hold the edge longer. Stainless has anti corrosion properties but is softer. High carbon is generally accepted to be superior and people are willing to take extra steps to prevent corrosion. I assume stainless has gained popularity in DE due to increased self life of the blades which can sit in storage for long periods prior to use.
Carbon steel or stainless, no DE or straight razor blade is being heat treated for ultimate hardness... if they were, you couldn't use disposable blades in a slant, because it would break, and the edge of a properly ground straight would be incredibly fragile!
*Inexpensive* stainless cutlery steels are very much prone to be more brittle at similar hardness to *low alloy* carbon steels, but that's a huge over-generalization and there are modern *cutlery* stainless alloys that are almost as tough at comparable hardness as low alloy carbon steels. Usually the biggest difference is that the stainless version will have worse sharpening response.
Much of the recent development in knife stainless has been focussed on high carbide steels, which offer the benefits of tool steel in stainless form, these tend to have a larger grain structure and often poor toughness compared to stuff like 1095. There are however a number of alloys with a similar toughness to hardness ratio to carbon steel and the ability to be hardened up into the 60+RC range that still have decent stain resistance... my guess is that these are simply not being used in production straight razors and some of the custom straights I see that are using cutting edge stainless alloys or tool steels have heavy grinds that will keep them from performing as well as a better design of razor using a lesser steel.I
If you've ever used a Personna 74*, you know that there are definite differences in the edge retention capabilities of stainless steels and you also know by extension that the companies using exotic alloys are loth to give out any information on what those alloys may be let alone the processes for heat treatment, or sharpening protocols!
*Inexpensive* stainless cutlery steels are very much prone to be more brittle at similar hardness to *low alloy* carbon steels, but that's a huge over-generalization and there are modern *cutlery* stainless alloys that are almost as tough at comparable hardness as low alloy carbon steels. Usually the biggest difference is that the stainless version will have worse sharpening response.
Much of the recent development in knife stainless has been focussed on high carbide steels, which offer the benefits of tool steel in stainless form, these tend to have a larger grain structure and often poor toughness compared to stuff like 1095. There are however a number of alloys with a similar toughness to hardness ratio to carbon steel and the ability to be hardened up into the 60+RC range that still have decent stain resistance... my guess is that these are simply not being used in production straight razors and some of the custom straights I see that are using cutting edge stainless alloys or tool steels have heavy grinds that will keep them from performing as well as a better design of razor using a lesser steel.I
If you've ever used a Personna 74*, you know that there are definite differences in the edge retention capabilities of stainless steels and you also know by extension that the companies using exotic alloys are loth to give out any information on what those alloys may be let alone the processes for heat treatment, or sharpening protocols!
Just a heads-up for any who might want to try carbon steel in their GEM SE razor; there are currently (late October 2020) GEM Blue Star blades in 10 packs (or multiples thereof) available for very decent prices on that auction site...
Last week I tried carbon steel blades as an experiment, namely Treet original.
The first shave was ok. Took a bit more effort than normal as they didn't seem as sharp as what I am used to but decent shave with no irritation.
Shave number 2 and the performance had declined but not sufficient to make it unusable. End results were much the same as the day before.
Day 3 - no way. I gave up before I'd even finished 1st WTG pass on one side of my face as it was clear it was not interested in cutting hair.
It's a shame as I find myself really wanting to like them.
The first shave was ok. Took a bit more effort than normal as they didn't seem as sharp as what I am used to but decent shave with no irritation.
Shave number 2 and the performance had declined but not sufficient to make it unusable. End results were much the same as the day before.
Day 3 - no way. I gave up before I'd even finished 1st WTG pass on one side of my face as it was clear it was not interested in cutting hair.
It's a shame as I find myself really wanting to like them.
Unlike pristine, uncommonly cared for vintage carbons, which i get great shaves with, I have never used a modern carbon blade that was better than bad to real bad.
I did the run of carbon offerings from Treet and would rate them:
Dura Sharp (yellow)
Classic
Silver
Falcon
Black Beauties
Dura Sharp (yellow)
Classic
Silver
Falcon
Black Beauties
Ron R
I survived a lathey foreman
Interesting facts about razor blade evolution and what metals are in them. Sandvik makes a lot of stainless steel strip reels for razor blade manufactures and I have used a lot of Sandvik machining carbide inserts in my machinist days and they make some of the best.
Sandvik gives basic information on their stainless steel makeup because a lot of this is proprietary information.
If a person wants to know more about razor blade stainless steel metal makeup go to Google and type " Sandvik stainless chromium steel for razor blades" and there is a PDF on the subject.
Sandvik gives basic information on their stainless steel makeup because a lot of this is proprietary information.
If a person wants to know more about razor blade stainless steel metal makeup go to Google and type " Sandvik stainless chromium steel for razor blades" and there is a PDF on the subject.
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