Car trouble ...

[Blue-EyedSon]

This may be a bit of a long shot, but I thought I'd ask to see if anybody here has any advice.

My car (a 2001 Saturn SL1 with just over 100k miles) has been having some difficulties. Every now and then, the car simply won't start. I will turn the key and the starter will not even crank. But the lights and radio come on just fine. The first time it happened (about 2 weeks ago), I pushed it to a mechanic shop down the road. They tested the battery and the battery is still very good. However, by the time the car got down to the shop and they tried starting it, it started fine. Thus, they weren't really able to figure anything out.

Since that time, it has done the same thing twice. It won't start, but after at least 30 minutes, it will start up just fine.

When it won't start, a couple other strange things happen. The brakes become very, very hard to press and the power steering seems to not function properly because the wheel is very hard to turn.

In all occasions, it has been full of gas and it was definitely properly put in park.

I'm at a loss, which is not surprising because I know next to nothing about cars. I'm planning on taking it in to the mechanic again in the morning to see if they can figure anything out, but without it acting up for the mechanic, I don't think there will be much they can do. Is there anything I should tell them to check? Any help or ideas?

Thanks.

 

[82R100]

Very possibly corrosion at the battery connection (though with a GM side terminal battery this isn't very common) or a bad batter cable or battery cable connection elsewhere.

It's also possible that the starter solenoid is going bad, but connections would be the first thing to try.

The brakes and steering are hard & heavy because the engine's not running. You have, maybe, enough reserve vacuum for two or three applications of the brake before the pedal goes hard. The steering gets heavy as soon as the engine stops.

- Chris

 

[Mr. O]

If you can get in to their call in show these guys are car geniuses. They are brothers who went to MIT and then decided to have a DIY auto repair show after having successful endeavors elsewhere. The show is quite entertaining and much can be learned from these guys. For those who haven't ever experienced this show, welcome to Car Talk.

http://www.cartalk.com/

 

[King of Kailua]

Diagnosis starts with the simplest thing .
Get some electrical contact cleaner and check and clean all you electrical system connections. It would be a shame to take the car to a mechanic and have him work you over for a measly loose wire or oxidized contact lead.

 

[Wingnut]

Here's one that I heard on the afore-mentioned Car Talk:

If you have an automatic transmission, it could be that your neutral safety switch is not working correctly. This is a switch which will only allow the engine to start when the transmission is in Park (or Neutral). If the switch "thinks" that you're in gear, the engine will not crank, although everything electrical will function normally. The test is to put the car in Neutral and then try to start it, or to try moving the shifter handle around while it's in Park. In either case, if it starts OK- there's your problem.

If you've got a clutch car instead, there is a switch on the clutch pedal which disables the starter when the clutch is not engaged. If this switch is stuck in the "un-engaged" position, your car won't crank, but everything else will function fine. Try using the toe of your foot to pull up on the clutch pedal and see if that works. If not, try getting underneath the dashboard, finding the switch (it's at the top of the clutch pedal lever arm - way up high) and tweaking it to see if it'll start then.

In either case, once you've figured out the problem, it's a relatively simple and inexpensive fix (< $100.00). Give it a try and let me know if it works for you.

 

[airplanedoc]

brake and PS sounds normal when the engine is not running.

when the car starts does it crank fast right away, or does it seem that the engine is turning over slow. If it is turning slower than normal, I would say it is the starter going bad.

 

[Greybeard]

My son-in-law has a 2001 Chevy Impala and was having the same problem you are.
He took the car to a GM dealership and they were baffled and suggested various possible repairs starting at a cost of $400. for a new ignition switch.
Before doing anything, he did a lot of research on the internet. Apparently this is a not an uncommon problem with 2000 - 2002 GM cars.
There is no one definitive solution or identified fault. The first thing to check, as Chris suggested, is your battery connections. The second thing would be a loose connection or faulty wire from the battery to the starter.

The most common problem is a faulty passlock system, which is what my son-in-law suspects is his problem. Apparently if the key is not recognized, the ignition system goes into theft-deterrent mode. You can sometimes get around this by turning the key to start until the seatbelt warning dings. Turn the key off, leave it in the ignition and wait about 10 minutes. The passlock system will then believe that the correct key is inserted, but that there is an ignition system failure. It then goes into fail-safe mode and disables the theft-deterrent sytem. The car will then start with any key that turns the ignition.
It may not be your problem, but it works for him.

If that is the problem, then to permanently fix it you would need a new ignition switch and/or a new BCM (Body Control Module) and the passlock reset.

And yes, it could also be the neutral safety switch, but less frequently than the passlock.

Hope this helps.




- Peter

 

[VR6ofpain]

Electrical problems are the worst. You issues sound similar to what I was facing. I connected my multi-meter to the battery and cranked the motor. The voltage dropped for the low 11's down to just under 5 volts. This was way too little to turn over the motor, hence all the electricals dying and the motor not turning over. So I borrowed the wife's car, picked up a new battery and threw it in my car. No issues since. This is a 2006 Accord mind you. I figured a 3 year old battery (at the time) was fine. Apparently batteries usually start to fail after 3 years (which was news to me as I had an Optima battery in my last car for over 5 years with no issues).

What I am getting at is maybe it is your battery. Try watching the voltage when you try to start the car. See if it falls dramatically.

 

[Angus Young]

Aside from the possible electrical problems mentioned above. It's possible the bendix on the starter could be dry and sticking. It should only take a mechanic twenty minutes to open it up and put some copper grease on it. If the starter won't turn at all boil a kettle and pour the water over the starter, if it is the bendix sticking the hot water should heat it up enough to free it off.

 

[galopede]

Another vote for cleaning all the thick battery cables and earth strap to the engine. Cheap and quick and it sounds like problems I've had before in my 40 years of driving!

Take each one off and sandpaper the cable connection and the battery pole or connection then make sure they are solidly connected again.

Watch out for your radio. Hope you have the security code or disconnecting the battery will lock the radio!

As an aside, I've not heard of this switch on a manual clutch car that stops the starter turning if the clutch is depressed. I was taught many years ago to depress the clutch before turning the engine over as it takes some of the strain off the battery as there's less to turn! Perhaps it's an American thing.

 

[Blue-EyedSon]

Many thanks to all. I'll double check the battery for signs of corrosion. I know almost nothing about cars so unfortunately I don't think I'll be able to do anything myself. But it is very helpful to know what I can ask the repair shop to look at.

The car is an automatic transmission. I've wondered about something like what John (wingnut) suggested. I never thought though to try starting it in neutral when it was giving me trouble. If it acts up again, I'll try that.

I've also wondered if it might be something related to the factory 'security' system that came with the car. I'll ask about that as well.

Thanks again guys! It is greatly appreciated!!!

 

[AdrianR]

...As an aside, I've not heard of this switch on a manual clutch car that stops the starter turning if the clutch is depressed.

It's another 'safety' feature designed to protect the foolish from themselves. How are you going to move the car on the starter if, say, you have stalled in a large pool of standing water with an engine that won't start?

I was taught many years ago to depress the clutch before turning the engine over as it takes some of the strain off the battery as there's less to turn!

Which doesn't make sense...if the transmission is in neutral then there's nothing to turn...

 

[82R100]

I was taught many years ago to depress the clutch before turning the engine over as it takes some of the strain off the battery as there's less to turn!

Which doesn't make sense...if the transmission is in neutral then there's nothing to turn...

Not so. With the clutch engaged, you're turning the input shaft of the transmission. If it's very cold (say, below 0&#176; F) there can be enough fluid friction there to noticeably load the engine when you let out the clutch in neutral.

- Chris

 

[WhosYerBob]

I had a '95 Saturn SL1 - as did 3 other family members - and all of them began to expire around the 88K mark. Good luck with your repairs.

 

[Cray]

When you turn the key to the 'Start' position, do you hear a click from under the hood? Or nothing at all?

If you hear a click, it might be the starter solenoid. Very easy to check - you'll need a friend, and a broom. Turn your key to 'Start' and hold it there, and have your friend give the starter a good whack or two with the end of the broomstick. If it starts right up when he does, it's most likely the starter solenoid.

That would explain why your mechanic didn't find anything last time, too. It probably warmed up a bit or got just enough of a jolt when you moved the car.

 

[tux_shaver]

I had a '95 Saturn SL1 - as did 3 other family members - and all of them began to expire around the 88K mark. Good luck with your repairs.

Mitch,

Wow. My Wife purchased a brand new 99 SL in college. Currently it has a little over 212k and still going. No major repairs to speak of. It still has the original clutch. We just feed it gas, tires and oil on a regular basis.

 

[King of Kailua]

When you turn the key to the 'Start' position, do you hear a click from under the hood? Or nothing at all?
If you hear a click, it might be the starter solenoid. Very easy to check - you'll need a friend, and a broom. Turn your key to 'Start' and hold it there, and have your friend give the starter a good whack or two with the end of the broomstick. If it starts right up when he does, it's most likely the starter solenoid.

Heh heh, I used to carry a small ball peen hammer just for this purpose when my little yellow datsun truck (R22 motor) wouldn't start. *whack* *whack* then good to go.

If it's a late model vehicle, I doubt the starter solenoid would be fritzing already, but with 100k, who knows. I'd still start diagnosing electrical connections first. Start with the simple!

 

[Thebigspendur]

An intermittent electrical problem=short somewhere. You need to find a place that specializes in auto electric. They will find the problem in a couple minutes. A general auto repair or dealer will monkey around clueless forever. Unless you find someone competent your in for hell.

 

[DunEdinRanger]

You really have to love those "systems" that don't let you start the car unless it is in park. I learned never, ever, to start a car unless it was in neutral/park AND my foot on the brake.