I can't access coticule.be recently, I don't know if it's my problem or the page is missing?
Canvassing thoughts about a 'problem' razor
- Thread starter cotedupy
- Start date
As another member pointed out, coticule.be moved to "shave" + "universe" + ".com".
This illustrates very well the benefits of a smiling edge. I used to consider a smile a defect but in fact it provides greater tolerance to blade geometry issues while honing.
I can't find the thread from coticule.be on the new site - perhaps Google has not indexed the site yet - so here is the quote from Bart*:
"They were not stupid in the old days. Putting a smiling curve onto an edge, solves all problems with the concave side of a warped blade. (which is a pretty common occurrence). Smiling blades need a rolling stroke or a small hone, no matter what, so no one ever notices a warp when present.
A smile projects the middle part of an edge enough to make it still touch the hone, regardless of a little concaveness."
*I save quotes.
"They were not stupid in the old days. Putting a smiling curve onto an edge, solves all problems with the concave side of a warped blade. (which is a pretty common occurrence). Smiling blades need a rolling stroke or a small hone, no matter what, so no one ever notices a warp when present.
A smile projects the middle part of an edge enough to make it still touch the hone, regardless of a little concaveness."
*I save quotes.
- Thread starter
- #25
This was another aspect I hadn't considered for if and when I do manage to get a good edge on it.
I've got a slightly narrower roo leather (i.e. very thin) strop that I assume will be quite good for that kind of thing...?
Probably right, as thin leather like roo will conform to the edge, unlike thick, stiffer leather.
This second-hand razor was already smiling when I bought it, but I also saw that the "BACK" change can become a smiling razor.
Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
Oli, this might help with managing wonky razors. This Leon Pelleray belonged to my French friend’s grandfather, and although it is not warped or twisted, it has both a smile and a frown. My job was to hone it as-is, with minimal changes to the shape, since it is a family heirloom. No brute forcing a straight edge on it. Oh, and a nice additional ‘bonus’ is that there was absolutely no trace of a bevel, none at all. The edge was as round as a butterknife. Alfredo did the cleanup, first image is his.
I mostly worked on it in sections, toe, middle, and heel, cutting the bevels with a mellow 320 diamond plate, using the corners and edges of the plate. Once I had bevels, I went to my usual synth progression, using the corners of the stones and again working in sections, with occasional ‘smoothing’ strokes, sliding the heel off the hone so that the edge of the hone would ride into the frown and across the smile.
Finally, I used narrow JNats to finish. The suita on the left can hone one any shape and although it isn’t quite a finisher, it can take an edge from bevel set to ready to finish with no problem. The second stone from the right, a narrow Nakayama kiita from Alex G, finished the edge. It took a great edge.
You don’t need narrow hones, you can use the corners of regular hones just as well, but if you have them they’re useful. The suita and the triangular asagi (second from left), were sold as tomo nagura for about $30 each, and the asagi is a good finisher. The suita sat on Takeshi’s site as a nagura for months and didn’t sell, no one wanted it. I finally clicked on it and saw that it was ~300mm (yes, it’s almost a foot long). and couldn’t hit the ‘buy’ button fast enough, lol.
The methods that I’ve described will allow you to hone just about any razor regardless of its problems, if it has it’s temper and the bevel angle is OK. The downside is actually doing it is a PITA and not something that you would want to do for a razor in regular use, just because the edge maintenance effort would not be worth it. That’s always something to consider when dealing with a warped/twisted razor that you own. I usually PIF these with a good edge on them and a warning to the recipient that no, I don’t want to hone them again
I mostly worked on it in sections, toe, middle, and heel, cutting the bevels with a mellow 320 diamond plate, using the corners and edges of the plate. Once I had bevels, I went to my usual synth progression, using the corners of the stones and again working in sections, with occasional ‘smoothing’ strokes, sliding the heel off the hone so that the edge of the hone would ride into the frown and across the smile.
Finally, I used narrow JNats to finish. The suita on the left can hone one any shape and although it isn’t quite a finisher, it can take an edge from bevel set to ready to finish with no problem. The second stone from the right, a narrow Nakayama kiita from Alex G, finished the edge. It took a great edge.
You don’t need narrow hones, you can use the corners of regular hones just as well, but if you have them they’re useful. The suita and the triangular asagi (second from left), were sold as tomo nagura for about $30 each, and the asagi is a good finisher. The suita sat on Takeshi’s site as a nagura for months and didn’t sell, no one wanted it. I finally clicked on it and saw that it was ~300mm (yes, it’s almost a foot long). and couldn’t hit the ‘buy’ button fast enough, lol.
The methods that I’ve described will allow you to hone just about any razor regardless of its problems, if it has it’s temper and the bevel angle is OK. The downside is actually doing it is a PITA and not something that you would want to do for a razor in regular use, just because the edge maintenance effort would not be worth it. That’s always something to consider when dealing with a warped/twisted razor that you own. I usually PIF these with a good edge on them and a warning to the recipient that no, I don’t want to hone them again
- Thread starter
- #30
Oli, this might help with managing wonky razors. This Leon Pelleray belonged to my French friend’s grandfather, and although it is not warped or twisted, it has both a smile and a frown. My job was to hone it as-is, with minimal changes to the shape, since it is a family heirloom. No brute forcing a straight edge on it. Oh, and a nice additional ‘bonus’ is that there was absolutely no trace of a bevel, none at all. The edge was as round as a butterknife. Alfredo did the cleanup, first image is his.
I mostly worked on it in sections, toe, middle, and heel, cutting the bevels with a mellow 320 diamond plate, using the corners and edges of the plate. Once I had bevels, I went to my usual synth progression, using the corners of the stones and again working in sections, with occasional ‘smoothing’ strokes, sliding the heel off the hone so that the edge of the hone would ride into the frown and across the smile.
Finally, I used narrow JNats to finish. The suita on the left can hone one any shape and although it isn’t quite a finisher, it can take an edge from bevel set to ready to finish with no problem. The second stone from the right, a narrow Nakayama kiita from Alex G, finished the edge. It took a great edge.
You don’t need narrow hones, you can use the corners of regular hones just as well, but if you have them they’re useful. The suita and the triangular asagi (second from left), were sold as tomo nagura for about $30 each, and the asagi is a good finisher. The suita sat on Takeshi’s site as a nagura for months and didn’t sell, no one wanted it. I finally clicked on it and saw that it was ~300mm (yes, it’s almost a foot long). and couldn’t hit the ‘buy’ button fast enough, lol.
The methods that I’ve described will allow you to hone just about any razor regardless of its problems, if it has it’s temper and the bevel angle is OK. The downside is actually doing it is a PITA and not something that you would want to do for a razor in regular use, just because the edge maintenance effort would not be worth it. That’s always something to consider when dealing with a warped/twisted razor that you own. I usually PIF these with a good edge on them and a warning to the recipient that no, I don’t want to hone them again
View attachment 1607690View attachment 1607692View attachment 1607693
I'll never tire of seeing the amazing transformation of that razor, and the stones used for it. Great stuff!
And yes - I do obviously have plenty of narrow and weirdly shaped whetstones if needs be. I've mostly European stuff remember, it's not like Japan where anything that isn't a perfect rectangle the size of a football pitch gets called 'nagura'.
- Thread starter
- #31
So just to explain something about what I meant when I said I'd removed the 'shoulders'. Basic stuff that everybody will know, but just in case it's not the right terminology in regards to razors...
When you sharpen most knives you do it with the bevel and spine lifted off the stone, so your edge angle is higher than your bevel angle. Knife geometry is compound and complex in comparison to a razor. If you then lay your bevel flat on the stone the cutting edge is lifted off, the stones touches from the start of the bevel, or 'shinogi line', down to the point where the bevel meets the cutting edge, which is called the 'shoulder'.
On a razor by contrast the bevel and the cutting edge are the same. But if someone's tried to hone one like a knife with the spine lifted off the stone, that will give it the same shoulders you get on knives, which will lift the edge off the stone if you try to hone it normally. That's what I had to grind through, and it's the reason that visually the bevel at the edge is quite wide now.
Now as I mentioned I did that without tape. Which had one possible advantage in that it did a lot of the work of correcting the spine in regard to the warp at the same time. But what I hadn't really considered was that because I was removing the shoulders just behind the edge not material at the edge, whilst removing material at the spine, the razor was staying the same height but the bevel angle was going down.
All that meant was basically when I went to measure the bevel angle with two layers of tape it was still only just over 14.5. So I actually honed this with three layers of tape which took it to a smidge over 15.5.
---
I'd noticed much clamouring earlier in this thread for funny shaped stones to be employed, unfortunately I only had a handful of things on me, but hopefully some of these will satisfy people.
Tidied up a bit on the SG500 and then moved to the Rosy Red for bevel set proper. The section of the heel that I pictured before was the bit really still giving me gip. That and a tiny bit at the toe on the other side required a bit of rolling and trickery, but managed it eventually.
The 'iromono' Vielle Rouge du Regne coti in the middle I chose cos it's quite coarse and marginally convexed at the sides, plus I kinda rubbed it with a bit of sandpaper before too. That worked well, it was quite easy to roll and hit the full length of the edge on this stone.
The next coti is lovely, fast, fine, and did a grand job. I had properly flattened and chamfered the Tam stick at the end specially, to try it out for the first time as it's a surprisingly fine stone, so I thought I'd see how the finish was.
All of the honing here from the bevel set through to finish I did in-hand, cos I was trying to use the roll of the stone as well the razor. On the Tam stick that proved a little tricky, because when you hold the handle it creates a fulcrum and if you're trying to use in cricket what one might call 'soft hands' then you get more movement at the end of the stone than you do near the handle. In this vid you can see how I'm trying to let the stone move a bit.
Which is a lot easier if you're holding the stone in the palm of your hand, rather than with a handle at the end. And I kinda slipped / misjudged it a couple of times which took the edge back a bit. So went back to the previous coti and finished on that instead.
---
Long story short - I got there in the end.
After stropping on a little roo leather strop I made a while back the shave was really rather good, close and comfortable. It's quite a thick and heavy 7/8, and in use is quite unlike any other razor I have. If I could grow a proper viking-style beard, and then wanted to get rid of it for some reason - this is the razor I would reach for.
I'm quite happy with the profile too, pretty flat with just a hint of smile. Wasn't a silent HHT though, maybe about 4, so I'll probably give it another go on a different finishing stone and see if I can get even better. But after that I will be done, it's not something I intend to hone particularly often!
---
Thank you all for your thoughts on this thread, in particular a shout out to my main man @Steve56 for his advice and encouragement via message through the process.
When you sharpen most knives you do it with the bevel and spine lifted off the stone, so your edge angle is higher than your bevel angle. Knife geometry is compound and complex in comparison to a razor. If you then lay your bevel flat on the stone the cutting edge is lifted off, the stones touches from the start of the bevel, or 'shinogi line', down to the point where the bevel meets the cutting edge, which is called the 'shoulder'.
On a razor by contrast the bevel and the cutting edge are the same. But if someone's tried to hone one like a knife with the spine lifted off the stone, that will give it the same shoulders you get on knives, which will lift the edge off the stone if you try to hone it normally. That's what I had to grind through, and it's the reason that visually the bevel at the edge is quite wide now.
Now as I mentioned I did that without tape. Which had one possible advantage in that it did a lot of the work of correcting the spine in regard to the warp at the same time. But what I hadn't really considered was that because I was removing the shoulders just behind the edge not material at the edge, whilst removing material at the spine, the razor was staying the same height but the bevel angle was going down.
All that meant was basically when I went to measure the bevel angle with two layers of tape it was still only just over 14.5. So I actually honed this with three layers of tape which took it to a smidge over 15.5.
---
I'd noticed much clamouring earlier in this thread for funny shaped stones to be employed, unfortunately I only had a handful of things on me, but hopefully some of these will satisfy people.
Tidied up a bit on the SG500 and then moved to the Rosy Red for bevel set proper. The section of the heel that I pictured before was the bit really still giving me gip. That and a tiny bit at the toe on the other side required a bit of rolling and trickery, but managed it eventually.
The 'iromono' Vielle Rouge du Regne coti in the middle I chose cos it's quite coarse and marginally convexed at the sides, plus I kinda rubbed it with a bit of sandpaper before too. That worked well, it was quite easy to roll and hit the full length of the edge on this stone.
The next coti is lovely, fast, fine, and did a grand job. I had properly flattened and chamfered the Tam stick at the end specially, to try it out for the first time as it's a surprisingly fine stone, so I thought I'd see how the finish was.
All of the honing here from the bevel set through to finish I did in-hand, cos I was trying to use the roll of the stone as well the razor. On the Tam stick that proved a little tricky, because when you hold the handle it creates a fulcrum and if you're trying to use in cricket what one might call 'soft hands' then you get more movement at the end of the stone than you do near the handle. In this vid you can see how I'm trying to let the stone move a bit.
Which is a lot easier if you're holding the stone in the palm of your hand, rather than with a handle at the end. And I kinda slipped / misjudged it a couple of times which took the edge back a bit. So went back to the previous coti and finished on that instead.
---
Long story short - I got there in the end.
After stropping on a little roo leather strop I made a while back the shave was really rather good, close and comfortable. It's quite a thick and heavy 7/8, and in use is quite unlike any other razor I have. If I could grow a proper viking-style beard, and then wanted to get rid of it for some reason - this is the razor I would reach for.
I'm quite happy with the profile too, pretty flat with just a hint of smile. Wasn't a silent HHT though, maybe about 4, so I'll probably give it another go on a different finishing stone and see if I can get even better. But after that I will be done, it's not something I intend to hone particularly often!
---
Thank you all for your thoughts on this thread, in particular a shout out to my main man @Steve56 for his advice and encouragement via message through the process.
Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
YW sir and good luck. Just lift the toe a little to get that last bit of heel, you’ll get the hang of it very quickly.
- Thread starter
- #33
Ta! It’s pretty good now tbh, used it yesterday and I’m not going to need to shave today anyway. Just I suspect I can probably get it a little better, maybe on a finishing stone that isn’t a very fast, quite soft coticule...
