Canvassing thoughts about a 'problem' razor

[cotedupy]

Might I trouble some of yous for your 2c regarding this one, it has the potential to be very nice indeed I think, but it is also very troubled...

The first problem I came up against was that it had been freehanded, i.e. sharpened like a knife with the spine raised off the stone. Giving the bevel 'shoulders', and raising the cutting edge off the stone if you try to hone it normally. Which I then did, in order to try to grind them down and create a normal, albeit quite wide, razor bevel.

That in turn exposed more problems in that the razor has what I'd call fairly significant warping, it's difficult to take a picture of but I've tried to show it below. And you can see in the second picture how I'm not even close to setting the bevel / getting to the apex at the heel on that side, despite quite a wide bevel just further up.

So, two questions...

1.) Would you have done anything differently originally? Afaics I would've needed to grind the shoulders off no matter what. Or have I missed something obvious and ballsed it up further for no reason...?

2.) What would you do now? I'm quite tempted to give it a couple of layers of tape and have done. But is there anything else I should consider...?

 

[cugel]

I like the looks of that razor so if it were me I would try some tape and see if that shifts the angle enough to get an edge on it. But you are a knife guy...free hand that bad boy.

 

[Steve56]

PM sent

 

[Frank Shaves]

I would measure the bevel angle in the middle and halfway between the middle and the toe and heel.

If by chance all three points measure 16.5, I would throw one layer of Super 88 on the spine and get to it on my 1k, but I am guessing that this is not the case :-(.

 

[Mr Kooby Shemayrew]

That first picture. If that is warp down the full bevel……

 

[cotedupy]

I like the looks of that razor so if it were me I would try some tape and see if that shifts the angle enough to get an edge on it. But you are a knife guy...free hand that bad boy.

Haha, I consider myself pretty nifty in terms of freehand knife sharpening, but thought of doing on a razor makes my teeth itch!

It is a nice looking razor though yeah, hopefully I'll manage to get it to good working order. Steve has kindly pinged me some thoughts about how he'd approach it, and offered to talk me through if needs be. So if I still fail after that then it's all on me...

 

[JPO]

Haha, I consider myself pretty nifty in terms of freehand knife sharpening, but thought of doing on a razor makes my teeth itch!

It is a nice looking razor though yeah, hopefully I'll manage to get it to good working order. Steve has kindly pinged me some thoughts about how he'd approach it, and offered to talk me through if needs be. So if I still fail after that then it's all on me...

Keep us posted

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Looks like a warp and a twist. The stamped side is the concave side, the back is the convex. Also appears to have had a heel issue that was roughly corrected and could use a little more to get well away from the stabilizer.

It has been honed on the stabilizer and tang, with pressure which have caused a slight frown and uneven edge.

Colored ink on the Spine, Stabilizer, Tang and Bevels will tell you if that is old or you. A rolling X, using only one inch of the stone nearest the edge will get it honed, dropping the heel off the stone on the stamped side and lifting the heel on the back side to get the Heel and Toe honed.

Making a pencil line one inch from the edge can help you visualize where you need to be on the stone. The goal is to shift the pressure from the heel to the toe while making contact with a small part of the stone. If you put the whole blade on the stone the middle will not touch the stone on the concave side and the heel and toe will not touch on the convex side.

Take your time and avoid the temptation to use excessive pressure. Keep inking the bevel to track your progress, I use red ink, it is much easier to see. And stay off the stabilizers.

Tape will not help, other than to save some Spine wear.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Looks like a warp and a twist.

This. Significant enough that "repairing" it to hone flat and easy would probably ruin the nice big razor aspect of it. I'd hone it on a 1" wide or narrower hone if it were me. (Maybe one of those Convex hones would work... I've not tried one to see if the convexing is enough to compensate for warped razors, would be interesting to see, if you happen to own one)

Beveling is the most bothersome part of this... once it's beveled, it's just a nice slow process that you don't want/need to rush. It'll get there; take your time and don't risk banging up the edge trying to hurry.


Also you may need to spend a bit more time on the strop than you are used to... the center of the cupped side is going to not get much contact/pressure on a strop.

 

[Frank Shaves]

Rolling x-strokes on a narrower hone are your friend. There was a great thread about this on coticule.be, but the site no longer seems to be.

 

[JPO]

I have a TI razor that was just as bad as this. I just used a convex hone, and did the final finish with light laps on a flat stone.
Now i will run and hide

 

[cotedupy]

Looks like a warp and a twist.

This.

Cheers for the thoughts guys! And yes - good spot. I didn't mention it in the OP but I think the warping is both being bent and being twisted. The spine to edge alignment is all over the place.

It has been honed on the stabilizer and tang, with pressure which have caused a slight frown and uneven edge.

Ha! That would've been me I think, when trying to get rid of the shoulders. When I received it no part of the edge on either side was touching the stone.

The tiny scrap of good news in all this is that it doesn't actually have a frown. That'll just be distortion at the sides of a photo taken quite close to the razor.

---

Basically (and I may not have made this clear initially)... the reason the spine and edge have significant wear now is that I had to grind the shoulders off, which I did without tape. And that process evened it out so that the bevel is now pretty much set, to hone flat, along the majority of the edge excluding the section of the heel I pictured. And I'm hoping to get that bit nailed with tape, vamos a ver!

So I think by sounds of it some of your advice here might relate more to my first question: 'Would you have done anything differently originally?'

And perhaps I could've avoided some of what I did if I was clever and skillful with narrow honing and rolling bevel sets. But also afaics; I think I kinda had to do what I did, because it had been freehanded and I needed to get rid of the shoulders...(?)

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Did you correct the heel?

When you hone on the stabilizer, you lift the heel off the stone and put pressure/wear on the toe of the bevel and more importantly the spine.

So, the bevel angle is lowered at the toe. Folks add more pressure or add pressure with fingers to try to get the middle of the bevel on the stone, like you would do with a knife. On a razor, it just makes a frown or wonky edge because the pressure on the bevel is uneven.

It does flatten the spine, but in the wrong angle, or if you correct it, (not honing on the stabilizer, the spine is now, more wonky (you can’t put steel back on).

Rolling the pressure on a small part of the stone, (1”) should produce even pressure on the stone.

I would have taped the spine, further corrected the heel, ink the bevels and set the bevel on a course stone with a rolling X stroke, (Shapton 500) or Naniwia 600 to flatten the bevels. Once close to flat switch to a 1k.

Bevels will never be even so, don’t even try, just get an edge on it. I would tape the spine to not remove more steel. With ink on the bevels, you can experiment with extra tape on the spine, a one inch in the middle. Taping the middle also aids with the Rolling X stroke, acting as a pivot. Try it and watch the ink on the bevels to monitor progress.

Ink is the key, to make sure you are going in the right direction, try some red ink.

 

[SammieM]

Rolling x-strokes on a narrower hone are your friend. There was a great thread about this on coticule.be, but the site no longer seems to be.

All the site threads were transferred to shavinguniverse I think…

 

[Frank Shaves]

All the site threads were transferred to shavinguniverse I think…

Thanks for that!

 

[Empire straights]

Might I trouble some of yous for your 2c regarding this one, it has the potential to be very nice indeed I think, but it is also very troubled...

View attachment 1605524


The first problem I came up against was that it had been freehanded, i.e. sharpened like a knife with the spine raised off the stone. Giving the bevel 'shoulders', and raising the cutting edge off the stone if you try to hone it normally. Which I then did, in order to try to grind them down and create a normal, albeit quite wide, razor bevel.

That in turn exposed more problems in that the razor has what I'd call fairly significant warping, it's difficult to take a picture of but I've tried to show it below. And you can see in the second picture how I'm not even close to setting the bevel / getting to the apex at the heel on that side, despite quite a wide bevel just further up.

View attachment 1605523

View attachment 1605525


So, two questions...

1.) Would you have done anything differently originally? Afaics I would've needed to grind the shoulders off no matter what. Or have I missed something obvious and ballsed it up further for no reason...?

2.) What would you do now? I'm quite tempted to give it a couple of layers of tape and have done. But is there anything else I should consider...?

Tape the thick shiny parts of the spine on the ends and hone until it's even. Or do it by touch. That's the only way I've been able to do wedges, treat them as knives. I probably should revisit some i have. Start with a llyn idwal and move to coti >fine bbw.

 

[Christian1212]

I have a TI razor that was just as bad as this. I just used a convex hone, and did the final finish with light laps on a flat stone.
Now i will run and hide

I don't currently have any problem razors but I saw someone else use the convex hone on the starting stages and finish with flat stones.

I did not try the convex stones as I didn't want to try to maintain them when flat stones stones did what I needed. However I like the idea of having a 1k-3k range convex stone for some trouble razors or ones with larger bevels to get the edge rolling. Almost like a mini re grind for the razor. Not sure how annoying it would be though to maintain that stone and or how quick it would be.

 

[JPO]

I don't currently have any problem razors but I saw someone else use the convex hone on the starting stages and finish with flat stones.

I did not try the convex stones as I didn't want to try to maintain them when flat stones stones did what I needed. However I like the idea of having a 1k-3k range convex stone for some trouble razors or ones with larger bevels to get the edge rolling. Almost like a mini re grind for the razor. Not sure how annoying it would be though to maintain that stone and or how quick it would be.

The maintenance of these convex hones can be easier. You just work the stone when you hone and avoid the centre. You can also use a concave dressing stone and a small nagura to maintain the shape. It’s been years since i shaped some of mine.
These are the type of detail that could be discussed if if this subject was not so controversial.

My newest coticule from ardennes actually came convex. i did not bother flattening it.
It only takes 5-10 minutes to shape a stone without any cnc machined concave plate.

 

[kcb5150]

Try the narrow side of a synth to sort that out. It looks badly warped across the length of the razor and twisted at the tang.

 

[TSENG]

I have encountered the most curved gold dollar 66, as shown in the picture I corrected the BACK.